Trusting women and love

[Kirran]

I'm just honest about that fact, but everyone does it. We _have_ to. There are certainly a few gems in what might look like a coal pile, hell I found one myself. BUUUUT, if I had to do it all again I would do exactly as I stated. I would move to an area conductive to finding the relationships I want. I want loyalty, a keeper, and someone whom I can build a household with a few rugrats with. I'm holding them to the very expectations I keep for myself. That means for my 20 something aged version of myself I'd move to a more conservative area with women whom are child-bearing capable, and whatnot.

We are all commodities -- our entire relationship status is a value proposition. Do you bring enough of X, Y, Z to keep the future misses happy? Men evaluate women the same way - we're looking for pretty ones, smart ones, and a woman of high values because we don't want ugly looking kids who can't graduate high school and have no sense of tact. We're also evaluating women on appearance not only for kids but also grand kids. This stuff is hard-wired biological imperative type stuff, not so much things we make decisions on.

I dunno man. I think a relationship can be a movement of love, a communion of souls.

 

[Quintessence]

I dunno man. I think a relationship can be a movement of love, a communion of souls.

What is this romantic nonsense? Get your priorities straight!

 

[Mindmaster]

I dunno man. I think a relationship can be a movement of love, a communion of souls.

It can be, but it usually isn't. That's the pipe dream stuff...

Relationships generally start in the commodity head space and have the opportunity to grow to the ideal once those boxes are checked. People will not give people whom offend the criteria the chance to get to the next level because they're already out of consideration. All of us know the things we can't live without and we won't bring people into our fold that easily. Let's ignore love for a minute... How do you pick your "friends"? Association with things you are involved with or people you already like, what they do, entertainment value, etc... Commodities... Trust me, you pick everyone in your life that is not blood related in this very way. and it's OK. It becomes something more than that with trust and time...

Quick love does happen, I probably knew my wife was the one I wanted within a few days. (Though there would be no way I would inject that into our relationship at that period of time, it's offensive.) But, I did spend over twenty hours with her in that little bit of time. I asked a lot of questions. This is an unusual experience, not typical, and not something to be seeking. If it happens it happens, but it's abnormal... It's not a sign of failure if it doesn't happen that way. It's also rather foolish to chase these things because off the bat they are an unknown quantity. Work from the known, experience will tell you the rest. If you're seeking that magic right off well you're looking for an impossibility or getting ready for a delusion. (That's to say, you think you have it but you don't... It's not been reciprocated. It's also very off-putting to the receiver of such unwanted feelings, and might even cost you the opportunity.)

 

[Mindmaster]

What is this romantic nonsense? Get your priorities straight!

Define love without mentioning a single value proposition!

This is simply the case where people believe in some fairy tale fantasy rather than the reality of it. The magic happens after the value criteria are met...

 

[Kirran]

It can be, but it usually isn't. That's the pipe dream stuff...

Relationships generally start in the commodity head space and have the opportunity to grow to the ideal once those boxes are checked. People will not give people whom offend the criteria the chance to get to the next level because they're already out of consideration. All of us know the things we can't live without and we won't bring people into our fold that easily. Let's ignore love for a minute... How do you pick your "friends"? Association with things you are involved with or people you already like, what they do, entertainment value, etc... Commodities... Trust me, you pick everyone in your life that is not blood related in this very way. and it's OK. It becomes something more than that with trust and time...

Quick love does happen, I probably knew my wife was the one I wanted within a few days. (Though there would be no way I would inject that into our relationship at that period of time, it's offensive.) But, I did spend over twenty hours with her in that little bit of time. I asked a lot of questions. This is an unusual experience, not typical, and not something to be seeking. If it happens it happens, but it's abnormal... It's not a sign of failure if it doesn't happen that way. It's also rather foolish to chase these things because off the bat they are an unknown quantity. Work from the known, experience will tell you the rest. If you're seeking that magic right off well you're looking for an impossibility or getting ready for a delusion. (That's to say, you think you have it but you don't... It's not been reciprocated. It's also very off-putting to the receiver of such unwanted feelings, and might even cost you the opportunity.)

I don't think it is a pipe dream at all. I don't mean by that that it's some romantic perfect thing, not in the least. To have that emotional intimacy with another person will almost inevitably be messy, and probably hard. But that doesn't negate it.

As for picking your friends with that view, again I disagree. I don't think we really operate like that, I think we operate emotionally. We are attracted to a person (in whatever capacity!) by our feeling about them far more than by a rational or semi-rational list of value judgements and priorities. Sure, knowing they tick X and Y boxes can help ignite or dampen our interest, but that interest is independent of that first off.

Love is also not some thing to be boxed up and held for when a romantic relationship or a close relationship is established. There is already love at the basis of our relations with the people in our lives, and we can be open to that and not let it be something binding.

 

[PureX]

It just seems for me as a new bachlor considering the climate around me that my own trust issues are apparent. Dating is now a scary reality but unfortunately my trust in women at least the ones in California. Sometimes I wish it was the 40's where the value of family was of value perhaps the only thing I agree with conservatives on.

We are living in a culture that has been inundated with commercial strength advertising 24-7 telling us that we should have whatever we want, and that we should want whatever we can get. So it's not surprising that each succeeding generation growing up under the influence of many decades of this kind of selfishness are behaving as you describe. The truth is this constant culture of selfishness has become so pervasive that most people are not even aware that they are living in it, and therefor are not aware that we might live any other way.

You are one of the few that has been able to see it, and to see around it to other, better possibilities. That may make you a little bit of an "odd-man-out" in your own culture, but I think you should be grateful that you have eyes and a mind that can see what's happening around you a little better than most. Now you just need to train those eyes of yours to look for a potential mate that is able to do the same. I am quite sure they are out there, and hoping to find you, as well.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Both men and women do this. It isn't an issue of women being any more untrustworthy than men. But California may have something to do with it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Every gal I've ever been involved with has been trustworthy.
(All but one have been over 40 years ago though.)
But I have observed untrustworthy people.
The trick is to recognize & avoid them.

 

[Mindmaster]

Both men and women do this. It isn't an issue of women being any more untrustworthy than men. But California may have something to do with it.

First line of my first post on this thread. Move! Seeking this in south Cali is wasting time.

It's not a man v. woman issue to me, but this is the men's section so the posts I've made are tailored to that point of view.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Are you suggesting men don't say they love women and then change at some point, or that men don't cheat on women?

The subject is “men’s issues” though. I am not questioning what men do is not of my concern this is about me, a man, and his experiences.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

EBM, women are just as trustworthy as men when it comes to love and relationships -- it's hard for both sexes to stay honest and ethical in these matters. People are ruthless in their pursuit of pleasure. Love and sex are challenges equally to both sexes.

But I’m not focused on other men though and it’s apparent that to me, men can be just as dirty. But as it says this is a male issue concerning trust. You may be older than me and perhaps you don’t understand but there is an issue where trust is a rare thing in Cali. I have trust issues with people period but really do not trust women. Just looking at the situations around me I just really don’t trust women.

I’ve had married women flirt and want to have sex with me and I see women who cheat justify their infidelity with being unhappy. Now there are several single men at my hospital that decide to marry non-American women (which seems to be the zeitgeist for single professional men 35-45).

 

[Epic Beard Man]

U

I think most of Mindmaster's advice is good actually, looking for personal conservatism and veering away from highly career-focused types who aren't likely to be interested in a family is sound given the OP's concerns. But, the political bit seems a little wonky.

In my experience there are a ton of people in the US who identify as center-left and are personally conservative. While I've seen plenty of ideation of traditional lifestyles from the modern American right, I haven't seen much in the way of actually living that out for the under-35 set. Many seem to be punk rock types trying hard to be edgy, attracted by the movement's populist tone and not really motivated by the same concerns as the generally-older Religious Right. This is colored by region, of course. As normies by definition hew closely to accepted wisdom and social norms, that'll probably trend right-wing in red states where it likely trends center-left in most blue ones, the inverse being where edgy radical types go in both cases. I find many center-leftists here are people who would be considered centrists or even one-nation conservatives in Europe, who vote Democrat more out of things like environmental protection/universal healthcare/anti-bigotry outlooks than personal libertinism, bearing in mind that America is a more culturally conservative country than most of Western Europe as well.

Depending on where in California you are, your culture may have libertinism basically ingrained in it though, regardless of political affiliation. The Bay Area is a hectic and very career-focused area, and LA markets itself on rampant hedonism. So, moving isn't out of the question if you honestly can't find anyone. But, there are gems even in the darkest mine. Joining social clubs where you're likely to find people compatible with you seems like the best option for now, a church is the first go-to I'd suggest.

I don’t mind a career oriented woman, I love that but I want a woman who doesn’t exchange I love you like underwear.

 

[Terese]

I see women who cheat justify their infidelity with being unhappy.

You would scorn them for that?

 

[PureX]

I know this is difficult to put into practice, but I think trust is one of those things that we have to do because of who WE are, not because of who someone else is. I think that when we are fully in possession of ourselves, and of our own choices and actions, we can trust others regardless of their proven 'worthiness'. Put simply, if we choose not to 'cheat' on someone because that's not who we are or how we choose to live our lives, rather than because we expect the other person to do the same for us in return, then if we do not get that same fidelity in return, it will not hurt us. It simply tells us that they are different from us in who they are and how they choose to live. Our choice and trust in fidelity and in the other person, is not harmed because it was never predicated on the expectation of their return, to begin with.

Does this make sense?

 

[suncowiam]

During my own post break up situation I recently learned that my former significant other is deciding to see someone else. Without going into too much detail it seems that my former significant other decides to move on so soon and onto another person. Considering this individual expressed being in love with me and initally instigated the phrase in our relationship, I think its quite odd someone who was in love could move on so quickly. I was recently told through text message that "I give a "sh*t about you, but I just act like I don't" yet this individual can move on so quickly despite the things I've done to try and make a situation work (despite her issues concerning her sexual assault/abuse in her former relationships).

Now I'm not going to rehash old news, but it just proves at least in the dating world the cultural climate among some women and even some older and supposed "mature women" that love is just a temporal feeling. Ironically I always try to encourage some of my friends in their failing relationships to give love a try in another situation with a different person and to be optimistic, but as I realize my situation along with several other situations with my co-workers and other friends, I'm starting to realize that there exist among women in California, a phenomena where love is used either as a crutch or a momentary feeling and not necessarily something that is really building a relationship around.

For example a fellow registered nurse named "Jose" recently was terminated from my hospital for threatening an EMT to stay away from his wife (while at home mind you) because he (Jose) found out that while he was at home taking care of his two babies, his wife was philandering with the EMT after work and also sexting each other. Jose was terminated and his wife still works on the same shift with the man she decided to cheat on Jose with.

An EMT I'll call "Ernesto" an EMT turned registered nurse was cheating on his wife with a Starbucks barista who I knew and befriended long time ago. I even told this young lady after finding out she was seeing this guy who is married that it is wrong and she ought to break it off, continued to see him. What made this situation worse was while they were having sexual relations, instead of a motel/hotel, they decided to do it in the bed Ernesto and his wife sleeps in and to put salt on the wounds, this young girl occasionally would tuck Ernesto's kids in while she would stay over at his house while his wife worked a night shift.

It just seems for me as a new bachlor considering the climate around me that my own trust issues are apparent. Dating is now a scary reality but unfortunately my trust in women at least the ones in California. Sometimes I wish it was the 40's where the value of family was of value perhaps the only thing I agree with conservatives on.

Love isn't a mutually exclusive process.

And it's all in the eye of the beholder. Your expression of love will differ from others.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You would scorn them for that?

Yes. I’ve been unhappy in a relationship but it does not force me to cheat. I say I’m unhappy and I break it off. I don’t believe in women or men cheating because they are unhappy. If your relationship isn’t salvageable then leave.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Love isn't a mutually exclusive process.

And it's all in the eye of the beholder. Your expression of love will differ from others.

True but if it’s a difference in vision one must express that with involved partner and come to a mutual sight (sight being a representation of understanding).

 

[suncowiam]

True but if it’s a difference in vision one must express that with involved partner and come to a mutual sight

I can tell you that I harbored love for many of my exes. Not all relationships break up badly. Some just doesn't work because of other choices like career, children, family and so on.

Someday, you'll find someone more in-tuned with you. But that's just a temporal illusion because then you two will start diverging. You'll have to make the hard decision of trying to remain in tuned via compromises and sacrifices. Or you could meet someone completely opposite of you but over time you two become more in sync. Just don't ever expect it to be perfect.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I can tell you that I harbored love for many of my exes. Not all relationships break up badly. Some just doesn't work because of other choices like career, children, family and so on.

Someday, you'll find someone more in-tuned with you. But that's just a temporal illusion because then you two will start diverging. You'll have to make the hard decision of trying to remain in tuned via compromises and sacrifices. Or you could meet someone completely opposite of you but over time you two become more in sync. Just don't ever expect it to be perfect.

Interesting perspective... I will ponder that

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I will say this, and this is typically for people who make comments like @Sunstone this is a men's section. Women vent and make generalizations all the time but their pain or whatever their grievances are, are not taken away by others saying "well women do it too!" I feel like sometimes this "feminist" take on a male venting experiencing their own personal pain. I feel like I should have this pain and experience and vent because why can't men vent? this is the same thing with discussions concerning racism when talking about the longitudinal effects of slavery and systemic racism. There is always that person that says "well Africans sold slaves as well!" its like that is besides the point in exchanging grievances. The fact is I experience this and the fact people say that, takes away my personal experiences in dealing with a particular subject.