Truth and Religion

[Marcion]

So basically results over theory?

It's only because many people value theory more than result driven practices that we speak of religions and that this forum is called Religious Forums.
A true spiritual practitioner doesn't see religions, only practices.

 

[Brian2]

There's this guy Diotrephes in John's epistle who might have been an early
'Bishop' of the nascent Catholic Church. He wanted the 'pre-eminence'
amongst his people. Instead of being an itinerant preacher like John he had
drawn a little church around himself, as the central figure, and barred them
from talking to the disciples.
Diotrephes is an uncommon name. Yet there's this First Century Diotrephes
in the RCC.

It was not the RCC then, but yes this man was there in the church and there have been many like him over the years and still these days who want recognition and control.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you join a religion because it says that it teaches the truth, but continuously updates or outright changes its official beliefs, is the religion then contradicting itself?

Also, if you join the religion because of its current beliefs, but then those beliefs change, is it logical for them to accuse you of rejecting the truth if you leave because of the changes?

Which religion are we referring to?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The dark ages only applies to the western church, not the eastern church. The only reason why the Rennaissance scholars called those times the dark ages was because they believed that Greek and Roman society was the most advanced, and because there was a decline technologically, they called it the dark ages. It has nothing to do with spiritual darkness.
Proverbs 4:18, if you read it in context, is regarding behaviour, not the understanding of God's purpose or will, especially doctrine.
I can see all your other scriptures applied to the middle ages church. They had a monopoly on "truth" therefore they expected all to be unified in belief. All heretics were excommunicated or killed.
There is also no reason that Christians should agree on a falsehood. Unity shouldn't supersede truth. Also expecting people to just change their beliefs based on the understanding of their leaders and not their own would mean that their belief isn't genuine. If they are told to speak in agreement about something that they do not agree with, and that thing changes later is stupid. They would just be following men, and not their God or their own convictions.

In Christianity the Leader is: Christ, belief in what Christ teaches is to a Christian genuine truth, genuine religious truth as Jesus taught - John 17:17

 

[rational experiences]

In Christianity the Leader is: Christ, belief in what Christ teaches is to a Christian genuine truth, genuine religious truth as Jesus taught - John 17:17

It is a science teaching.

When you read old science symbolism you would realise.

CH an evaluated gas term in design.
Arose....out of body earth stone advice.

Gases belonged only to earth stone.

Not a wandering star stone.

CH gas mass held holy water above our head at ground state.

Scientific advice why it had an agreed taught following. Science.

Jew El name God fusion crystalline bodies jewEl.

El God used in alchemical sciences.

Humans were irradiated.

Their response to awareness expressed as circular movements in dance. As our minds were effected yet we were saved. Dance then became our praise for being saved.

An actual lived reality.

Humans use title or namesake for religious idealism of memorium.

Why we apply these types of community choices. To remember and never forget life sacrificed.

 

[Samael_Khan]

In Christianity the Leader is: Christ, belief in what Christ teaches is to a Christian genuine truth, genuine religious truth as Jesus taught - John 17:17

If there are hierarchies in a group, then there are different stages of leadership. If you are not taking orders directly from Jesus, but from those who claim to represent him, then your faith is in your leaders, not in Jesus, and therefore they are your leaders. If beliefs of a group are subject to change and have changed, then they aren't teaching truth, but at best truth mixed with falsehood.

 

[metis]

I guess that would depend on whether the 'eye' witness was personal or that which is handed on.

Yes, but I also think that this actually adds veracity to this as scribes & monks later didn't alter the narratives to make them an exact match. Like being to a sporting event, after the game people who watched it can have differing recollections as to what exactly took place.

 

[pearl]

Yes, but I also think that this actually adds veracity to this as scribes & monks later didn't alter the narratives to make them an exact match. Like being to a sporting event, after the game people who watched it can have differing recollections as to what exactly took place.

If the narratives were written with attention to the particular needs of their church community it would explain how the sayings of Jesus were used here and there in different circumstances.
And yes, it could be referred to as 'Monday morning quarter backing'.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If there are hierarchies in a group, then there are different stages of leadership. If you are not taking orders directly from Jesus, but from those who claim to represent him, then your faith is in your leaders, not in Jesus, and therefore they are your leaders. If beliefs of a group are subject to change and have changed, then they aren't teaching truth, but at best truth mixed with falsehood.

Qualifications for the spiritually older men are listed at 1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-9 if you care to know.
The Bible standards have Not changed.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Qualifications for the spiritually older men are listed at 1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-9 if you care to know.
The Bible standards have Not changed.

And?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Sirona , Proverbs 4:18 refers to Biblical understanding getting brighter, ie., clearer, ie., more refined.

Contrary to what some claim, it’s not behaviour that Proverbs 4:18 is addressing — Christians have always known God’s standards of behavior...sex outside of marriage, lying and thievery are still improper, concern & love for others is still acceptable. Rather, it’s the teachings from Scripture, what they mean, that would become “brighter”.

This being the case, in line w/ this passage, we should expect a religion using the Bible as it’s guide, to adjust its understanding from time to time.
Otherwise, how could their path ever get brighter?

Jesus’ words @ Luke 10:21 are appropriate here: it’s his Father, (ie., the God of ancient Israel, Yahweh / Jehovah) who gives revelation, not Jesus himself. He also hides it from some, according to that verse. It would stand to reason, that God would hide His truth from those who disobey His requirements....those who are greedy, selfish, or are sexually promiscuous. How much of the religious world tacitly condone such actions? What about joining conflicts & killing their brothers, due to some geographical borders?
Titus 1:16. John 13:34-35.

Do you think God would reveal truth to these?



Hope you stay well, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Qualifications for the spiritually older men are listed at 1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-9 if you care to know.
The Bible standards have Not changed.

And they never will.
Furthermore, the counsel at Hebrews 13 7,17 is more important than ever, in this confused & rebellious world!

 

[Samael_Khan]

@Sirona , Proverbs 4:18 refers to Biblical understanding getting brighter, ie., clearer, ie., more refined.

Contrary to what some claim, it’s not behaviour that Proverbs 4:18 is addressing — Christians have always known God’s standards of behavior...sex outside of marriage, lying and thievery are still improper, concern & love for others is still acceptable. Rather, it’s the teachings from Scripture, what they mean, that would become “brighter”.

This being the case, in line w/ this passage, we should expect a religion using the Bible as it’s guide, to adjust its understanding from time to time.
Otherwise, how could their path ever get brighter?

Jesus’ words @ Luke 10:21 are appropriate here: it’s his Father, (ie., the God of ancient Israel, Yahweh / Jehovah) who gives revelation, not Jesus himself. He also hides it from some, according to that verse. It would stand to reason, that God would hide His truth from those who disobey His requirements....those who are greedy, selfish, or are sexually promiscuous. How much of the religious world tacitly condone such actions? What about joining conflicts & killing their brothers, due to some geographical borders?
Titus 1:16. John 13:34-35.

Do you think God would reveal truth to these?



Hope you stay well, my cousin.

Sorry, but read the context of Proverbs, especially the first few chapters. It isn't addressed to Christians because they weren't around at the time, even though it applies to them now, but it addresses young people and guides them on the right way to walk. That is why those chapters constantly contrast the behaviour of the good vs the behaviour of the wicked and who you should follow. Nothing doctrinal in there. It definitely isn't talking about Bible understanding regarding doctrine.

Also, since the context doesn't address Christians but Israelites of the time, and we know how the Israelites struggled between behaving properly and not, especially as pointed out in the book of Judges and the prophets, it makes perfect sense that the book about wisdom would be teaching readers how to behave.

If you want to argue the point, explain the context of the whole of chapter 4 and how it specifies doctrine and not behaviour.

Just to help you along, here is the whole of Proverbs 4. Understandably, since chapters and verses were inserted later, all the chapters before this and after should be read as well. Where does it talk about doctrine? Notice how often it talks about "walking the right paths" and not "believe the right thing". All the verse I bold in red refer to behaviour.

4 Listen, my sons, to a father’s instruction;
pay attention and gain understanding.
2 I give you sound learning,
so do not forsake my teaching.
3 For I too was a son to my father,
still tender, and cherished by my mother.
4 Then he taught me, and he said to me,
“Take hold of my words with all your heart;
keep my commands, and you will live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or turn away from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
8 Cherish her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
9 She will give you a garland to grace your head
and present you with a glorious crown.”

10 Listen, my son, accept what I say,
and the years of your life will be many.
11 I instruct you in the way of wisdom
and lead you along straight paths.
12 When you walk, your steps will not be hampered;
when you run, you will not stumble.
13 Hold on to instruction, do not let it go;
guard it well, for it is your life.
14 Do not set foot on the path of the wicked
or walk in the way of evildoers.
15 Avoid it, do not travel on it;
turn from it and go on your way.
16 For they cannot rest until they do evil;
they are robbed of sleep till they make someone stumble.
17 They eat the bread of wickedness
and drink the wine of violence.

18 The path of the righteous is like the morning sun,
shining ever brighter till the full light of day.
19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness;
they do not know what makes them stumble.

20 My son, pay attention to what I say;
turn your ear to my words.
21 Do not let them out of your sight,
keep them within your heart;
22 for they are life to those who find them
and health to one’s whole body.
23 Above all else, guard your heart,
for everything you do flows from it.
24 Keep your mouth free of perversity;
keep corrupt talk far from your lips.
25 Let your eyes look straight ahead;
fix your gaze directly before you.
26 Give careful thought to the paths for your feet
and be steadfast in all your ways.
27 Do not turn to the right or the left;
keep your foot from evil.

 

[Samael_Khan]

@Sirona

Jesus’ words @ Luke 10:21 are appropriate here: it’s his Father, (ie., the God of ancient Israel, Yahweh / Jehovah) who gives revelation, not Jesus himself. He also hides it from some, according to that verse. It would stand to reason, that God would hide His truth from those who disobey His requirements....those who are greedy, selfish, or are sexually promiscuous. How much of the religious world tacitly condone such actions? What about joining conflicts & killing their brothers, due to some geographical borders?
Titus 1:16. John 13:34-35.

By the way, you do realise that you are saying that there is no possible way of determining what God's truth is right? Or who has it? Because if people cannot distinguish truth vs lies on their own through their own reasoning, there is no way of knowing whether anybody is interpreting the Bible correctly. So for all we know, you could be disobeying Gods requirements and could be teaching falsehood because God is hiding the truth from you, and you only think that God is guiding you.

[Edit: Since JW's acknowledge that they have been teaching falsehoods when "new light" gets revealed, does that mean that God was hiding truth from you guys as well? And if so, what bad things were you guys doing? ]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And they never will.
Furthermore, the counsel at Hebrews 13:7,17 is more important than ever, in this confused & rebellious world!

Thank you for your timely reminder, as worthy ones are deserving of respect - 1 Thessalonians 5:12

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thank you for your timely reminder, as worthy ones are deserving of respect - 1 Thessalonians 5:12

So none of these address the points I made. I wasn't talking about whether you should respect the older men or not. I was talking about following men who say they speak for God. You aren't actually dealing with point but are addressing strawmen whether you realize it or not.

Also, the implication of what your colleague said about God hiding the truth from certain people and revealing it to others, means that there is no objective standard to knowing what is true or what is the correct interpretation of the bible. Therefore just respecting leaders for the sake of respect is moot.

Finally, why do JW's on the forum hardly ever deal with the actual question asked but go off on Red Herrings and Strawmen? For instance, your reply in post 109 did not accurately respond to my post you quoted. I was talking about the implications of following men who say they speak on behalf of someone invisible and that hierarchies mean that you follow men. Instead of answering that base point, you mentioned how men should qualify for elders. That is not addressing my point.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So none of these address the points I made. I wasn't talking about whether you should respect the older men or not. I was talking about following men who say they speak for God. You aren't actually dealing with point but are addressing strawmen whether you realize it or not.
Also, the implication of what your colleague said about God hiding the truth from certain people and revealing it to others, means that there is no objective standard to knowing what is true or what is the correct interpretation of the bible. Therefore just respecting leaders for the sake of respect is moot.....

It isn't just men just 'saying' they speak for God - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30, because as Luke wrote an apostasy would begin after the first century ends.
This also ties in with our day or time frame - 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 1 Timothy 4:1.
God allows people to believe lies if they want to - 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
Not God, but it is 'Satan who blinds the minds' according to 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:14; Revelation 12:9.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It isn't just men just 'saying' they speak for God - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30, because as Luke wrote an apostasy would begin after the first century ends.

Yes. So there would be many people who claim to speak for god. But if there is a possibility of people being blinded by satan or god, then that means that there isn't an objective way to understand the bible, there for all you know you are reading the book wrong.

God allows people to believe lies if they want to - 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11

Yes, but this cannot be used as an excuse for every Tom, Dick and Harry to say that you don't believe them because you are blinded, because there is no standard of interpretation.

Not God, but it is 'Satan who blinds the minds' according to 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:14; Revelation 12:9.

I was basing my point of what Hockeycowboy said "It would stand to reason, that God would hide His truth from those who disobey His requirements".

So again, many other denominations and groups can use the same reasoning to support their own group.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes. So there would be many people who claim to speak for god. But if there is a possibility of people being blinded by satan or god, then that means that there isn't an objective way to understand the bible, there for all you know you are reading the book wrong.
Yes, but this cannot be used as an excuse for every Tom, Dick and Harry to say that you don't believe them because you are blinded, because there is no standard of interpretation.
I was basing my point of what Hockeycowboy said "It would stand to reason, that God would hide His truth from those who disobey His requirements".
So again, many other denominations and groups can use the same reasoning to support their own group.

To me the objective way to understand the Bible is by the use of its corresponding cross-reference verses and passages.
The objective standard is to research the Bible by topic or subject arrangement.
Since the Bible is Not written in alphabetical order, then the aid of a comprehensive concordance puts Bible topics / subjects in ABC order for us.
To me it would seem logical for everyone to say they understand or why would they want to stay in their religion__________
An inquiring mind wants to know, I've met a lot of people who don't inquire about their beliefs.
I have cousins that to me are very logical college educated people, but when a Bible subject comes up then logic goes right out the window, so to speak.
Instead of logic it becomes Higher Criticism instead of an open mind. Seems to me their standard is the standard of self-righteousness over Scripture.
The old ' cafeteria-style' Christian of 'picking and choosing' which parts of the Bible suits their purpose or goals in life.
There are people who 'like lies' according to Revelation 22:15 and God does Not interfere with their choice; even though: lies are sins.
Please notice 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 because God allows people to believe lies if they want to. For that reason biblical truth is hidden from them.
It is their choice unless they choose to repent.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And?

And, please notice the word ' brother ' ( spiritual brother at verse 11) found at 1 Corinthians 5:10-13