Trying To Understand Atheism

[Thumper]

If you don't believe gods exist and you don't believe gods don't exist you are automatically sitting on the fence and haven't jumped down to any of the two sides.

That's not necessarily so. What if you don't believe anybody has ever defined the word "god" enough to make such a determination one way or the other?

 

[ArtieE]

That's not necessarily so. What if you don't believe anybody has ever defined the word "god" enough to make such a determination one way or the other?

Then you don't believe gods exist and you don't believe gods don't exist for lack of a proper definition of a god in the first place.

 

[Thumper]

Then you don't believe gods exist and you don't believe gods don't exist for lack of a proper definition of a god in the first place.

I was actually just positing that this would be a possible agnostic position.

However, I also don't believe that there is an unambiguous definition for the term "god." In another thread I was reminded that this position is referred to as ignosticism.

I would say that I am more an agnostic atheist in that I'm not sure that a viable definition is possible for any entity who could reasonably be considered a deity.

Sorry if this still sounds vague. People tend to want clean black and white categories, but in reality, people are not that 2-dimensional.

 

[Valjean]

If you don't believe gods exist and you don't believe gods don't exist you are automatically sitting on the fence and haven't jumped down to any of the two sides.

This is a false dilemma. One need not have an opinion either way.
Do you believe there are little green men on Mars?
Can you answer without fence sitting?

 

[ArtieE]

This is a false dilemma. One need not have an opinion either way

Strawman. Never said you did.

Do you believe there are little green men on Mars?
Can you answer without fence sitting?

A better question is: Do you believe that gods exist? No. Can you answer without fence sitting? Yes. I could sit on the fence and say "No, I don't believe gods exist and I don't believe gods don't exist either" or I could be a strong atheist having jumped off the fence and say "No, I don't believe gods exist, in fact I will go so far as to say I believe gods don't exist."

 

[Thumper]

Strawman. Never said you did.A better question is: Do you believe that gods exist? No. Can you answer without fence sitting? Yes. I could sit on the fence and say "No, I don't believe gods exist and I don't believe gods don't exist either" or I could be a strong atheist having jumped off the fence and say "No, I don't believe gods exist, in fact I will go so far as to say I believe gods don't exist."

I believe Thor, Odin, Apollo, Zeus, and countless other ancient gods don't exist. I would suspect neither do you. Does that make us both "strong atheists?"

I also believe the question of the existence of gods is meaningless without a coherent, non-controversial definition of the term "god." Is that agnostic or atheistic? Strong or weak? Does it matter how you categorize it?

 

[ArtieE]

I believe Thor, Odin, Apollo, Zeus, and countless other ancient gods don't exist. I would suspect neither do you. Does that make us both "strong atheists?"

Well, actually I am more of an apatheist when it comes to the existence of gods. Come to think of it... if people asked me whether I believed gods exist or believed gods don't exist I might say that I can't be bothered to have any beliefs either way. It's not that important to me.

I also believe the question of the existence of gods is meaningless without a coherent, non-controversial definition of the term "god." Is that agnostic or atheistic? Strong or weak? Does it matter how you categorize it?

Then you're an ignostic and none of the others. Ignosticism - Wikipedia

 

[Willamena]

Then you're an ignostic and none of the others. Ignosticism - Wikipedia

Darned fence-sitters.

 

[Thumper]

Well, actually I am more of an apatheist when it comes to the existence of gods. Come to think of it... if people asked me whether I believed gods exist or believed gods don't exist I might say that I can't be bothered to have any beliefs either way. It's not that important to me.Then you're an ignostic and none of the others. Ignosticism - Wikipedia

Yes, I am ignostic (knew that), but that also means that I don't have a belief in gods, which puts me in the general category of atheism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And those people are fence sitters. They haven't jumped down on the side of theists or on the side of strong atheists. They don't believe gods exist and they don't believe gods don't exist.

Once someone tells me in a coherent way what "gods" means, I'll give you an opinion on whether they exist. Until then, I have to limit my opinions on gods to the specific gods I'm familiar with.

 

[ArtieE]

Yes, I am ignostic (knew that), but that also means that I don't have a belief in gods, which puts me in the general category of atheism.

That puts you in the category of implicit atheist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That puts you in the category of implicit atheist.

... "Implicit atheist" is a type of atheist.

Also, anyone who explicitly states that they're an atheist (assuming they're sincere) is an explicit atheist, not an implicit atheist.

 

[ArtieE]

Once someone tells me in a coherent way what "gods" means, I'll give you an opinion on whether they exist. Until then, I have to limit my opinions on gods to the specific gods I'm familiar with.

How can you have gods you are familiar with if you don't even know what "gods" mean?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How can you have gods you are familiar with if you don't even know what "gods" mean?

I have a set of things that have been identified to me as gods. I have a set of things that have been described to me as definitively not gods. I haven't been able to find any common characteristics for either set that would allow me to have a general understanding of what "god" means so that I could come to general conclusions about all gods.

Edit: as an analogy, even if I didn't know what the word "country" means in a general sense, if I was told that, say, Canada and Japan are countries but North Dakota, Dustin Hoffman, and my oven are not, I could have some level of understanding. I would know that:

- countries can have populations
- countries can have cultures
- at least some cooking appliances are not countries
- at least some land areas are not countries
- at least some people are not countries

But I wouldn't know that:

- a country requires territory
- cooking appliances cannot be countries
- people cannot be countries

That's kind of the level of understanding I have with the word "god". I know something about it, but only what I've inferred from an incomplete set, so it's not enough to generalize.

 

[ArtieE]

... "Implicit atheist" is a type of atheist.

Also, anyone who explicitly states that they're an atheist (assuming they're sincere) is an explicit atheist, not an implicit atheist.

An exercise in stating the obvious.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

An exercise in stating the obvious.

So you agree that it's obvious that you're wrong? Weird, but I'll take it.

 

[ArtieE]

I have a set of things that have been identified to me as gods. I have a set of things that have been described to me as definitively not gods. I haven't been able to find any common characteristics for either set that would allow me to have a general understanding of what "god" means so that I could come to general conclusions about all gods.

An atheist is a person who doesn't believe in gods. We all have a general idea about what a god is and if his idea varies wildly from that idea just let him say exactly what it is he doesn't believe exists.

 

[ArtieE]

So you agree that it's obvious that you're wrong? Weird, but I'll take it.

I'm always right. You are the one who manages to get everything wrong.

 

[ArtieE]

I have a set of things that have been identified to me as gods. I have a set of things that have been described to me as definitively not gods. I haven't been able to find any common characteristics for either set that would allow me to have a general understanding of what "god" means so that I could come to general conclusions about all gods.

Edit: as an analogy, even if I didn't know what the word "country" means in a general sense, if I was told that, say, Canada and Japan are countries but North Dakota, Dustin Hoffman, and my oven are not, I could have some level of understanding. I would know that:

- countries can have populations
- countries can have cultures
- at least some cooking appliances are not countries
- at least some land areas are not countries
- at least some people are not countries

But I wouldn't know that:

- a country requires territory
- cooking appliances cannot be countries
- people cannot be countries

That's kind of the level of understanding I have with the word "god". I know something about it, but only what I've inferred from an incomplete set, so it's not enough to generalize.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill... I'm sure such excruciating details are important to you but we manage with what we've got anyway.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

An atheist is a person who doesn't believe in gods.

Well, I flat-out reject a few and have seen no reason to accept any of the others I've heard of. As for the ones I haven't heard of... we can't believe what we've never even conceived, so I don't believe in those ones, either.

We all have a general idea about what a god is and if his idea varies wildly from that idea just let him say exactly what it is he doesn't believe exists.

I don't have "a general idea about what a god is", but if you do, maybe you could explain it to me.