Trying To Understand Atheism

[jonathan180iq]

Forgive my confusion,

Backed off that last line of attack pretty quickly, eh?

the entire point of this thread was that non belief is, in fact, belief in the negative.

Which is what I as trying to get you to admit, eventually. So I'm glad we're finally here.

Why wouldn't you just title your thread something more honest? Like, "I have an unwavering idea about what the atheist position entails and I'm not really trying to learn or understand anything else about it!"

That you argued with me while agreeing with that main point is in no way my fault.

You misunderstand my position and intent, again.

You're more than welcome to come in and say "yes, I agree with the OP."

I was not interested in doing that.

 

[ArtieE]

Forgive my confusion, the entire point of this thread was that non belief is, in fact, belief in the negative.

Which is obviously wrong since if a person says "gods exist" I can say "I don't believe that" and if a second person says "gods don't exist" I can say "I don't believe that either." I can just say I haven't made up my mind what to believe.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Which is obviously wrong since if a person says "gods exist" I can say "I don't believe that" and if a second person says "gods don't exist" I can say "I don't believe that either." I can just say I haven't made up my mind what to believe.

A simple point of logic that it seems some people are just unable to grasp.

 

[1137]

I speak to children at a child's level. I speak to adults at an adult's level. It's a valuable communication skill.

so you have no point so resort to trolling. Enjoy the ignore list.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

so you have no point so resort to trolling. Enjoy the ignore list.

Oh god, what have I done?

 

[1137]

Backed off that last line of attack pretty quickly, eh?


Which is what I as trying to get you to admit, eventually. So I'm glad we're finally here.

Why wouldn't you just title your thread something more honest? Like, "I have an unwavering idea about what the atheist position entails and I'm not really trying to learn or understand anything else about it!"


You misunderstand my position and intent, again.


I was not interested in doing that.

Well this is so inconsistent it's giving me a migraine. Funny how my once empty ignore list is now my troll/fundamentalist zone, yet it's only atheists.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Faith, and skepticism are dual opposites. There is a burden of proof to atheist as much as there is to believers.

 

[McBell]

Forgive my confusion, the entire point of this thread was that non belief is, in fact, belief in the negative.

No, it isn't.
non belief is not belief.
If it were belief, the "non" part would not be there.

 

[ArtieE]

Faith, and skepticism are dual opposites. There is a burden of proof to atheist as much as there is to believers.

No there isn't. When a theist says "gods exist" and the atheist says "I'm skeptical, do you have any proof?" the theist can't say "do you have any proof gods don't exist?" to the atheist. The theist has the burden of proof.

 

[McBell]

Oh god, what have I done?

Truth is something that gets many a person put on ignore.
So it seems that you have to choose between truth and being ignored.

 

[McBell]

Faith, and skepticism are dual opposites. There is a burden of proof to atheist as much as there is to believers.

What is my burden of proof?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Truth is something that gets many a person put on ignore.
So it seems that you have to choose between truth and being ignored.

Years ago I had a crazy ex-girlfriend who harassed me for months. Eventually, she punished me by ignoring me. Curiously, it didn't drive me to try to get her back.

I increasingly see repeated themes throughout life as I get older.

 

[1137]

No there isn't. When a theist says "gods exist" and the atheist says "I'm skeptical, do you have any proof?" the theist can't say "do you have any proof gods don't exist?" to the atheist. The theist has the burden of proof.

Ok, what if the theist says they believe god exists? That's not really a claim, it's a statement of ones belief. I bet the theist would still be asked to defend that belief in god. Now, if the atheist says that there is no reason to believe in god, this implies they believe the universe is godless. It's not a claim, just like the theists isn't. But if the theist has to support such a belief, so does the atheist.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Well this is so inconsistent it's giving me a migraine. Funny how my once empty ignore list is now my troll/fundamentalist zone, yet it's only atheists.

Questioning your logic and getting you to admit your intentions is not trolling - it's challenging.

If you choose to place all challengers on your ignore list, I imagine this forum will start appearing as a much more agreeable place for you.

I think difficult challenges to positions are necessary for growth - but that's just me.

 

[ArtieE]

Ok, what if the theist says they believe god exists? That's not really a claim, it's a statement of ones belief. I bet the theist would still be asked to defend that belief in god. Now, if the atheist says that there is no reason to believe in god, this implies they believe the universe is godless. It's not a claim, just like the theists isn't. But if the theist has to support such a belief, so does the atheist.

A theist has the belief that there are one or more gods, the weak atheist doesn't have that belief. Neither does the weak atheist have the belief that gods don't exist. The strong atheist has the belief that gods don't exist. The only people here who have the burden of proof is the theist and the strong atheist. Not the weak atheist.

 

[jonathan180iq]

No there isn't. When a theist says "gods exist" and the atheist says "I'm skeptical, do you have any proof?" the theist can't say "do you have any proof gods don't exist?" to the atheist. The theist has the burden of proof.

Just had this conversation with my 9 year old yesterday.

We were having lunch at his school and I used the example of a purple dragon sitting around the corner, just out of view. His first reaction was to be skeptical of my claim. I then asked him to prove to me that it wasn't there. He looked at me quizzically, walked over and looked, and came back satisfied that he had defeated me.

Ah, but if only adult conversations could be as productive.

 

[McBell]

Ok, what if the theist says they believe god exists? That's not really a claim, it's a statement of ones belief. I bet the theist would still be asked to defend that belief in god. Now, if the atheist says that there is no reason to believe in god, this implies they believe the universe is godless. It's not a claim, just like the theists isn't. But if the theist has to support such a belief, so does the atheist.

Personally, as an atheist, I do not bother asking theists to prove that they believe.
I am fine with taking their word for it.

 

[1137]

A theist has the belief that there are one or more gods, the weak atheist doesn't have that belief. Neither does the weak atheist have the belief that gods don't exist. The strong atheist has the belief that gods don't exist. The only people here who have the burden of proof is the theist and the strong atheist. Not the weak atheist.

I disagree. The strong atheist is clearing to KNOW there is no god, the weak atheist believes there are no gods. The difference is in the very fact that weak atheism admits it doesn't know with certainty, and is willing to change.

 

[YmirGF]

If you do not have any reasonable expectation of any gods exist, why can you not say "I believe there are no gods?" They're the same thing.

I normally do say there are no gods. Seriously, it's a mood thingy. I see no reason to get bent out of shape over an issue of semantics.

For the record, I am, by your definition, a strong atheist.

 

[ArtieE]

I disagree. The strong atheist is clearing to KNOW there is no god

Nonsense, that is a gnostic atheist.

the weak atheist believes there are no gods.

Nonsense again a strong atheist believes there are no gods.

The difference is in the very fact that weak atheism admits it doesn't know with certainty

Nonsense again, a person who doesn't know with certainty is an agnostic.

Seriously, read some beginners guide online about atheism and agnosticism.