dantech
Well-Known Member
At what point would you think it's fair to no longer give the benefit of the doubt to someone? Is it only when you have true and undeniable proof?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Turkey Refuses To Give US Permission to Use Air Bases To Attack ISIS
- Thread starter CMike
- Start date
At what point would you think it's fair to no longer give the benefit of the doubt to someone? Is it only when you have true and undeniable proof?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Look, Turkey can do as it pleases - it has more to lose than we do in the total scheme of things one way or the other and at the end of the day, it's their future they're betting on, and that's their right as a sovereign state. But if we're telling ourselves that they're a solid ally, then we're kidding ourselves.
98 percent of Turkish citizens are Muslim. Turkey is a founding member of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, an organization which is currently discussing the option of cutting ties with any nation which recognizes or claims that Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel. In fact, for the past ten years, the Secretary-General of the Organisation of the Islamic Cooperation has been Turkish.
Of the 57 member states of this organization, only four recognize LGBT rights (and Turkey isn't one of them). Their position on terrorism differs markedly from the position of western countries, and HRW (Human Rights Watch) has expressed concern about the vagueness of their policies on human rights repeatedly. During a meeting in Malaysia a few years ago, the delegates from this organization couldn't even reach an agreement on the group's definition of terrorism.
So how can we expect Turkey to be our ally in our "war on terror?"
98 percent of Turkish citizens are Muslim. Turkey is a founding member of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, an organization which is currently discussing the option of cutting ties with any nation which recognizes or claims that Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel. In fact, for the past ten years, the Secretary-General of the Organisation of the Islamic Cooperation has been Turkish.
Of the 57 member states of this organization, only four recognize LGBT rights (and Turkey isn't one of them). Their position on terrorism differs markedly from the position of western countries, and HRW (Human Rights Watch) has expressed concern about the vagueness of their policies on human rights repeatedly. During a meeting in Malaysia a few years ago, the delegates from this organization couldn't even reach an agreement on the group's definition of terrorism.
So how can we expect Turkey to be our ally in our "war on terror?"
Last edited:
Wirey
Fartist
Nato is a defensive traety organization. Turkey would only be required to allow the US to use their bases if it were proven they were attacked by another soveirn government. This doesn't make the cut.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
a friend of mine who has spent some time in Turkey, including just last year, is worried about the direction that country is going in, which indeed is being dragged that way by a growing anti-western sentiment. If they keep going in this direction, I wonder whether NATO may eventually consider dropping them?
BTW, they undoubtedly are not very happy with Obama's decision to help the Kurds.
BTW, they undoubtedly are not very happy with Obama's decision to help the Kurds.
CMike
Well-Known Member
It's still inappropriate behavior from a supposed ally.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I am fully aware of that WireyOne. The point stands though as to how much we can trust the current regime. I wouldn't want to put it to a test, then again, perhaps we should do just that.
From the perspective of those who expect them to submit, I guess it is.
Could it be that they are challenging the wisdom of the military decision?
I wasn't aware that Turkey was central in the OIC! Ouch!
I'm not a huge fan of Turkey but I kind of loosely think of them as a relatively moderate Muslim majority country - perhaps that's inaccurate?
If I was the head of Turkey I'd also refuse. History indicates that "the West" is impatient. It's far better for Turkey to not get involved - as long as the West does. Abstaining is not going to significantly hurt whatever relationship they have with the US. The risk is that the West won't step in. In that case their inaction will come back to bite them. But I'd guess they've weighed the odds.
I'm not a huge fan of Turkey but I kind of loosely think of them as a relatively moderate Muslim majority country - perhaps that's inaccurate?
If I was the head of Turkey I'd also refuse. History indicates that "the West" is impatient. It's far better for Turkey to not get involved - as long as the West does. Abstaining is not going to significantly hurt whatever relationship they have with the US. The risk is that the West won't step in. In that case their inaction will come back to bite them. But I'd guess they've weighed the odds.
Last edited:
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I agree and I doubt that our success, or our failure, will depend on Turkey's cooperation or lack thereof.
Hmmm... it strikes me that ultimately the first step towards a long term solution will come when regional power(s) are the leaders and mouthpieces of coalitions to stop ISIS-types. So we don't need Turkey this time - for ISIS-2014 - but the sooner the ME starts policing itself, the better off we'll all be.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
It will probably make it more expensive, which obviously is not good.
The problem with being a warmongering nation is that our limited resources are continually being squandered on things that are not a threat to us. The entire world knows that the USA is weakened, not strengthened, by our latest wars -- Iraq and Afghanistan.
So, as Turkey sees the USA weakened, the motivation to act in our interests rather than their own is not as immediate.
Agreed - it's time for us to stop leading these coalitions!
CMike
Well-Known Member
The problem is that if we don't do it no one else will, and ISIS is gunning for us as well.
So we either fight them in the middle east or in the United States.
CMike
Well-Known Member
Shad
Veteran Member
No it questions the effects such actions will have in its own territory. It has let Isis groups cross the border, setup training camps and recruitment centers on it's land. If it starts attacking Isis they will be hit first. Turkey put itself into a bad position but doesn't have the will, or power, to change these mistakes.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Aggregate moral calls are really tough. In WW II the Allies broke the enigma machine but allowed battles to be lost in order to achieve later, broader success.
In a similar way I wonder whether we might be better off letting ISIS spread it's brand of crazy all over the region. Maybe it would be good in the long run if it managed to poke SA and Iran. Short term horrible might lead to long term improvements.
It strikes me that we're playing right into ISIS's hand to lead "yet another ham-handed western intervention". It's these interventions that help ISIS push their message in the first place.
On the other hand, if regional leaders were to step forward and be the open, public leaders of a coalition, I believe we could support them in the background.
But if SA and Iran think they've got their acts together, let them deal with ISIS for a while.
Apple Sugar
Active Member
Sure there can. They refuse to help because they support ISL by allowing them to fortify their positions through Turkey's gateway to Syria. How would it look if Turkey then allowed America to land troops in Turkey so as to kill ISL?
Vice President Joe Biden apologizes to Turkey, UAE
By Chelsea J. Carter, Ben Brumfield and Sara Mazloumsaki, CNN
updated 6:58 PM EDT, Mon October 6, 2014