Two Amazon workers quit over harmful book on transgender people

[Left Coast]

Being trans is not a mental disorder, for the 10,000th time. Here's the American Psychological Association:

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression

 

[gnomon]

Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Long article but apparently Amazon has a policy against publishing misinformation on LGBT+ people, but allowed one book to slide. As a result, some Amazon workers have decided to petition, and two have decided to quit.

I support these Amazon workers. They should be able to work in a safe, comfortable environment, and if they aren't getting that at their jobs due to their employer selling these books and them working for an employer that does, I'm prone to think they can find a better job elsewhere.

I have zero support for these workers. Doesn't matter. It should be easy in this economy for them to find a job where such monolithic company fails to allow one book to slip through the cracks.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Interestingly my old high school history teacher (who we all suspected had someone she knew die in the Holocaust or was herself Jewish due to her extreme hatred of Hitler) repeatedly recommended we read Mein Kampf.
Said it was the best way to avoid that happening again

I read Mein Kampf. I disagree with your history teacher, even whilst agreeing with her basic premise that we should be informed about history.

Mein Kampf is waaaay less impactful if you want to avoid Nazism than reading up on some of the post war psych experiments on authority that could no longer be conducted (due to ethical concerns).

Eg.
Milgram experiment - Wikipedia
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia.

Also way less impactful than a whole bunch of other books, both academic or first hand accounts about the rise of Nazism.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That is outrageous! Libraries exist to provide information, with the Library Bill of Rights (non-binding) forbidding censorship and withholding information.

Censorship is good for no one. A healthy and functioning society won't be hasty to demand it. Demanding we have the ability to censor information for others, it's as bad as fundamentalist religions wanting to control the information others take in. Religious, political, life styles, various circumstances of birth, damn near everyone at various points have been under the gun of censorship laws and forbidden to speak. But yet it's still something that's inexplicably popular.

You'd remove all censorship and restriction from all materials?
Thats further than I'd go. Although I'm generally anti-censorship.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Gender dysphoria isn't a state of confusion.

How so?

The structures of the brain are shaped more like as we see in members of the sex a transgender person identifies as rather than a brain more shaped like the individual's birth sex.

What does "shaped more" mean?

If we were to compare the brain of a man who believes they are a woman to both a man's and woman's brain - you are claiming that the confused man's brain would be more similar to the woman's brain than the man's?

Or are you claiming that the confused man's brain is more similar to the man's brain - but with some added feminine features - or shape?

You can deny, but it had been revealed this is the case even before hormone therapy.

Ok - correct me if I'm wrong - but it seems that you are claiming that hormone therapy causes this "shape" of the brain to become more like the opposing sex?

It is not and the data does not support your claim.

What data?

And are you claiming that a fully transitioned person can still procreate?

There are zero health risks involved with transitioning?

It actually does reduce it. This has been well documented.

Source please.

As has a clinical emphasis on how societal prejudice is the root of many problems transgender people face.

********.

Jews in Nazi camps and enslaved blacks in America had way lower suicide rates than what is seen in the transgender community.

No amount of "societal prejudice" can compare to genocide and enslavement.

I believe it is the fact that gender dysphoria is often coupled with some other mental disorder or malady - such as depression.

Then you give that person a hormonal imbalance and then mutilate them - it's not pretty.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If we were to compare the brain of a man who believes they are a woman to both a man's and woman's brain - you are claiming that the confused man's brain would be more similar to the woman's brain than the man's?

I am saying the non‐confused individual who was born male but has a female identity has a brain that looks more like a female brain than a male brain.

Source please.

Standards of Care - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Jews in Nazi camps and enslaved blacks in America had way lower suicide rates than what is seen in the transgender community.

What? Hyperbole doesn't even begin to describe that one.

Then you give that person a hormonal imbalance and then mutilate them - it's not pretty.

What's not pretty is your wilful ignorance and refusal to accept valid scientofic positions and evidence and medical procedures, amd you do it not on facts and evidence but emotional appeals.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You'd remove all censorship and restriction from all materials?
Thats further than I'd go. Although I'm generally anti-censorship.

Pretty much.

 

[SomeRandom]

I read Mein Kampf. I disagree with your history teacher, even whilst agreeing with her basic premise that we should be informed about history.

Mein Kampf is waaaay less impactful if you want to avoid Nazism than reading up on some of the post war psych experiments on authority that could no longer be conducted (due to ethical concerns).

Eg.
Milgram experiment - Wikipedia
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia.

Also way less impactful than a whole bunch of other books, both academic or first hand accounts about the rise of Nazism.

I generally agree
It’s worth noting that she mainly taught early high school. At least as far as history was concerned. She taught all ages when it came to English. Which is a bit odd now that I think about it.
To be fair she would often recommend other books in conjunction. I think Mein Kampf can be useful for context. Because I mean you hear about it in school but no one talks about how it ended up being that way. It’s just like “and then everything changed when the Nazis attacked.”
(Bonus points for those who get the reference lol.)
But how? Why did people follow him? Why did he believe what he did?
That often gets left out. I’m sure for time constraints. But it’s useful nonetheless

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I generally agree
It’s worth noting that she mainly taught early high school. At least as far as history was concerned. She taught all ages when it came to English. Which is a bit odd now that I think about it.
To be fair she would often recommend other books in conjunction. I think Mein Kampf can be useful for context. Because I mean you hear about it in school but no one talks about how it ended up being that way. It’s just like “and then everything changed when the Nazis attacked.”
(Bonus points for those who get the reference lol.)
But how? Why did people follow him? Why did he believe what he did?
That often gets left out. I’m sure for time constraints. But it’s useful nonetheless

It's massively useful. I just don't see Mein Kampf as an effective way to understand that. The scientific studies I linked to are somewhat more informative I think.

But at a certain point, Mein Kampf is instructive. Just not as a coherent explanation of why WW2 occured.

 

[SomeRandom]

It's massively useful. I just don't see Mein Kampf as an effective way to understand that. The scientific studies I linked to are somewhat more informative I think.

But at a certain point, Mein Kampf is instructive. Just not as a coherent explanation of why WW2 occured.

It’s a piece of a larger puzzle. I feel like a teacher or someone versed in history might take a bit more out of it than your average layman. But I suppose that’s true of many things.
It did help me understand in a certain sense. Like in a sort of “these beliefs actually exist for real” sense. But you’re right, on its own it’s probably not very informative overall.

I have read several non fiction accounts of the rise of Hitler. Mostly out of genuine intellectual curiosity. And yeah they helped me understand the surrounding context immensely. Although the tactics for Neo Nazis have slightly changed because of the internet. I feel like there’s probably already dozens of studies and non fiction books about how Neo Nazis have adapted to modern technology, in particular the internet. Since it’s such a powerful tool in terms of communication and information (and disinformation) spreading

 

[metis]

Jews in Nazi camps and enslaved blacks in America had way lower suicide rates than what is seen in the transgender community.

I believe it is the fact that gender dysphoria is often coupled with some other mental disorder or malady - such as depression.

Can you link us to where ever you supposedly got these from?

As one who studied the Holocaust here in the States and in both Poland and Israel, and who taught a three-week unit on it and other forms of genocide in my poli sci course, I have never seen even an estimate as to what the Jewish suicide rate would have been, nor can I even figure out how one could even come up with one because who would keep those records and how would they get the necessary info?

 

[Kooky]

Can you link us to where ever you supposedly got these from?

As one who studied the Holocaust here in the States and in both Poland and Israel, and who taught a three-week unit on it and other forms of genocide in my poli sci course, I have never seen even an estimate as to what the Jewish suicide rate would have been, nor can I even figure out how one could even come up with one because who would keep those records and how would they get the necessary info?

The likely explanation is that somebody made it up specifically to construct an anti-LGBTQ argument.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I am saying the non‐confused individual who was born male but has a female identity has a brain that looks more like a female brain than a male brain.

Do you have a source for this?

And please - not another 120 pages - cite the source but then quote the requested data.

And why did you ignore my very relevant question?

In Post #60 you said, "You can deny, but it had been revealed this is the case even before hormone therapy."

Which led me to ask in Post #65, "Ok - correct me if I'm wrong - but it seems that you are claiming that hormone therapy causes this "shape" of the brain to become more like the opposing sex?"

Would you mind answering that question?

Standards of Care - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Forgive me - I did not read the entire 120 pages.

You just did what a lot of Christians do - they make a claim and then say, "Read the Gospels!" when asked for their sources.

I did search this guidebook for the word "suicide" and found this though,

"Two long-term observational studies, both retrospective, compared the mortality and psychiatric morbidity of transsexual adults to those of general population samples (Asscheman et al., 2011; Dhejne et al., 2011). An analysis of data from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare information registry found that individuals who had received sex reassignment surgery (191 MtF and 133 FtM) had significantly higher rates of mortality, suicide, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric morbidity than those for a nontranssexual control group matched on age, immigrant status, prior psychiatric morbidity, and birth sex (Dhejne et al., 2011). Similarly, a study in the Netherlands reported a higher total mortality rate, including incidence of suicide, in both pre- and post-surgery transsexual patients (966 MtF and 365 MtF) than in the general population of that country (Asscheman et al., 2011). Neither of these studies questioned the efficacy of sex reassignment; indeed, both lacked an adequate comparison group of transsexuals who either did not receive treatment or who received treatment other than genital surgery. Moreover, transsexual people in these studies were treated as far back as the 1970s. However, these findings do emphasize the need to have good long-term psychological and psychiatric care available for this population. More studies are needed that focus on the outcomes of current assessment and treatment approaches for gender dysphoria." (I bolded and italicized the relevant findings)

This guidebook only had these two uses of the word "suicide".

I then did a search for "suicidality" and found this one use,

"People who enter an institution on an appropriate regimen of hormone therapy should be continued on the same, or similar, therapies and monitored according to the SOC. A “freeze frame” approach is not considered appropriate care in most situations (Kosilek v. Massachusetts Department of Corrections/Maloney, C.A. No. 92–12820-MLW, 2002). People with gender dysphoria who are deemed appropriate for hormone therapy (following the SOC) should be started on such therapy. The consequences of abrupt withdrawal of hormones or lack of initiation of hormone therapy when medically necessary include a high likelihood of negative outcomes such as surgical self-treatment by autocastration, depressed mood, dysphoria, and/or suicidality (Brown, 2010)." (I bolded and italicized the relevant findings)

It looks to me like this source doesn't support your conclusion - but I could be wrong - because I don't know what you were referencing within these 120 pages.

However - I have seen many surveys taken - in an attempt to support the claim that you are making - and they are completely subjective and don't prove anything.

What? Hyperbole doesn't even begin to describe that one.

Not really hyperbole.

It is a well-documented fact that suicide among African slaves in the American South was extremely low.

Granted - my claim about Jews in Nazi camps cannot really be substantiated - because not just Jews were in those camps and many murders by Nazis were covered up by claiming suicide and there is a lot of information missing and contradictory witness testimonies.

Either way - even rough estimates were lower than the numbers found in the transgender community.

What's not pretty is your wilful ignorance and refusal to accept valid scientofic positions and evidence and medical procedures, amd you do it not on facts and evidence but emotional appeals.

Wow Pot - what's a Kettle to do with this not-very-subtle case of projection?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you have a source for this?

Basically every question you've asked is in there, and without quote mining. Such as, yes, it mentions suicide, but you fail to include how it does indicate a lot of that is societal prejudice. And then you quote where it did include a non-trans group and say itdidn't.

In Post #60 you said, "You can deny, but it had been revealed this is the case even before hormone therapy."

Which led me to ask in Post #65, "Ok - correct me if I'm wrong - but it seems that you are claiming that hormone therapy causes this "shape" of the brain to become more like the opposing sex?"

Carefully read this. If I mention the shape has been seen before hormone therapy, I am not stating the shape is caused by hormone therapy.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Basically every question you've asked is in there, and without quote mining.

Ooh - are you claiming that I am guilty of "quote mining"?

What did I take out of context?

Also - you don't reference an entire book when providing a source.

It makes it seem like you don't know what you are talking about.

You're acting like so many Christians out there.

Such as, yes, it mentions suicide, but you fail to include how it does indicate a lot of that is societal prejudice.

You were the one who provided that link in an effort to prove your claim that people getting poisoned and mutilated somehow reduced their rate of suicidality.

"Societal prejudice" has nothing to do with your claim.

And then you quote where it did include a non-trans group and say itdidn't.

What?

Carefully read this. If I mention the shape has been seen before hormone therapy, I am not stating the shape is caused by hormone therapy.

You said,

"You can deny, but it had been revealed this is the case even before hormone therapy."

The "even before" implies that hormone therapy also causes change in shape.

Does the brain of a man who undergoes hormone replacement therapy become more or less like the brain of a woman?

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Long article but apparently Amazon has a policy against publishing misinformation on LGBT+ people, but allowed one book to slide. As a result, some Amazon workers have decided to petition, and two have decided to quit.

I support these Amazon workers. They should be able to work in a safe, comfortable environment, and if they aren't getting that at their jobs due to their employer selling these books and them working for an employer that does, I'm prone to think they can find a better job elsewhere.

Words are just words and mean no more or less than just words . No words are offensive therefore no book can be offensive because we all are Gods creatures and God gave us the life of neurological reference . All people have neurological security and neurological immmunity and those whom are offended by words of opinion are giving in to feelings (bio-electrical stimulus) as opposed to being a neurological reference frame .
We are not what you all presently call humans , we are all neurolgical reference frames attached to bio-mass .
Regardless of all that , transgender is illogical in accordance with neurological reference programming , corrupt information and misguided . We are all born with an empty neurological reference frame and 5 senses that gain information . All information data stored in the neurological reference frame suppose to be objective information as opposed subjective corruptivity .
Gender is identifiable based on a (a) and (b) process , your neurological reference frames are identifiable (a) or (b) from birth .

 

[SkepticThinker]

Of course you can - you are being ridiculous.

I could share all my spiritual experiences with you - about talking to the Lord and seeing angels - and you don't think you have the right to challenge my claims?

Sure - you couldn't claim it didn't happen - but you could challenge me by saying that I only believed that it happened.

If a man believes they are a woman - I have every right to challenge that claim. Just because they believe they are does not make it so.

And if I want to write a book about it - I can - and anyone who wants to stop me is a fascist.

No - you are being ridiculous.

Why do you want to challenge that claim so badly? What's it to you?

 

[Kooky]

We are not what you all presently call humans , we are all neurolgical reference frames attached to bio-mass .
Regardless of all that , transgender is illogical in accordance with neurological reference programming , corrupt information and misguided . We are all born with an empty neurological reference frame and 5 senses that gain information . All information data stored in the neurological reference frame suppose to be objective information as opposed subjective corruptivity .
Gender is identifiable based on a (a) and (b) process , your neurological reference frames are identifiable (a) or (b) from birth .

Nope, you're wrong.