Two kinds of religion?

[Rick O'Shez]

But Christianity, which is what the OP is referring to is not a shamanic religion, but a mythic God religion. The power of the shaman, is replaced by God as authority, elevated from shaman as leader, to an Absolute Authority. Those that follow the extoric forms: the beliefs, the doctrines, the creeds, the practices, the traditions, etc, are in most cases not having any sort of inner awakening themselves. They are not entering into the sweat lodges, sitting on the meditation mat, going inward, looking within, etc. They are "Christians", because they self-identify with the forms. Therefore that practice is in fact wholly an exoteric religion.

Yes, much of Christianity does look to be on the exoteric end of the spectrum. I sometimes do "silent worship" with a Quaker group, that appears to be more esoteric.

Though I don't think it's always easy to judge which practices are transformative.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes, much of Christianity does look to be on the exoteric end of the spectrum. I sometimes do "silent worship" with a Quaker group, that appears to be more esoteric.

Yes, that certainly is, and can lead to some mystical states of awareness.

Though I don't think it's always easy to judge which practices are transformative.

I think the proof is in the pudding. From the outside you can kind of see someone who is in touch with that within themselves. It shows. Lots of people claim it, largely to support and validate their beliefs, but you can see they are pretty much stuck in their egos. There is a certain, quality that shows. Even if they don't say words.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think the proof is in the pudding. From the outside you can kind of see someone who is in touch with that within themselves. It shows. Lots of people claim it, largely to support and validate their beliefs, but you can see they are pretty much stuck in their egos. There is a certain, quality that shows. Even if they don't say words.

Yes, that is certainly the case. I suspect that most religious practices are intended to have an esoteric as well as an exoteric aspect, but that too often people get caught up in the exoteric and sort of miss the point.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes, that is certainly the case. I suspect that most religious practices are intended to have an esoteric as well as an exoteric aspect, but that too often people get caught up in the exoteric and sort of miss the point.

To be honest, it's easier to conform to the structures, than to transform within. The former is safe, because it's something you can control by doing or not doing adhering to something tangible outside of yourself. The latter is frightening, or terrifying, because it's opening the door to the individual subconscious mind, "beyond here lie dragons". It's the relatively few who are so compelled as to face these dragons where it is just you against the dark. Conformity is easy, but lacks the transformative element. Who really wants to stand naked before the Abyss, when it's easier to huddle in a group and assure one another all is well, there is safety in numbers, identifying one's self with the group of the "saved" ones?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It's the relatively few who are so compelled as to face these dragons where it is just you against the dark. Conformity is easy, but lacks the transformative element. Who really wants to stand naked before the Abyss, when it's easier to huddle in a group and assure one another all is well, there is safety in numbers, identifying one's self with the group of the "saved" ones?

There is certainly something comforting about the exoteric, the sense of long-established tradition.

 

[Windwalker]

There is certainly something comforting about the exoteric, the sense of long-established tradition.

Well certainly. Even esoteric religion has to have some structure to hang these discoveries upon, otherwise they are just floating adrift. It has to have some translation, otherwise transformation can't really occur. But when you neglect the inner path, then religion is an escape from one's spiritual responsibility to awaken.

 

[JoStories]

Of course this is exoteric. Exoteric religion is the outer forms, the practices, the rituals, the rules, the rites of passage, etc. That all members are involved in this means it is in fact the external forms, the exoteric aspects of religion they are engaged with. There's nothing "wrong" with that, of course. All religions have this aspect, legitimately.


It might help if you define what you mean by the spiritual path in this context. When I was citing the shaman specifically in regards to the esoteric aspects of religion, I was referring to where they will enter into mystical states and go on a spirit journey. That specifically is what is the personal exploration.

Now I am not saying that exoteric aspects are 100% divorced from esoteric aspects. They certainly are not. Drumming and dance, sweat lodges, chant, ritual sacrifice, and so forth all play an important role that aid in opening one to the inner paths. But not necessarily. Many can practice all the forms, and become quite insistent upon them being just so, and never have any sort of interior experiences, let alone actual explorations (like the shaman or a mystic will in various higher states of consciousness). The hope of exoteric forms, is that they will lead to esoteric awakenings. And when the latter occur, it can in fact better inform the exoteric forms, opening practitioners to the possibility of their own awakening.

But Christianity, which is what the OP is referring to is not a shamanic religion, but a mythic God religion. The power of the shaman, is replaced by God as authority, elevated from shaman as leader, to an Absolute Authority. Those that follow the extoric forms: the beliefs, the doctrines, the creeds, the practices, the traditions, etc, are in most cases not having any sort of inner awakening themselves. They are not entering into the sweat lodges, sitting on the meditation mat, going inward, looking within, etc. They are "Christians", because they self-identify with the forms. Therefore that practice is in fact wholly an exoteric religion.

Does this help clarify my thoughts?

You misunderstood me. What I meant was that the practices, while they do include expteric practice, are largely enteric, in that it is an inward spiritual journey that is taken. Our tribe does not use hallucinogens, but other do and this leads to clear enteric journeys. I personally use meditation to facilitate my spirituality. But in tribal practice, for example, a sing or a sweat, it is entirely internal. I CNA only speak for myself in terms of what I experience in these practices but I can say that many of the other members report to have had similar experiences.
As for Christianity, I completely agree of course. Although I have interviewed people who report internal spiritual encounters. This is second hand of course, and anecdotal as well but I can only take it at face value. I hope this helps.

 

[JoStories]

I suppose we should be grateful the inquisition isn't burning witches these days.

Not here but I saw a YouTube video of some people in Africa that continue to burn or otherwise kill those they think are witches. It's nuts but it does happen.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I witness some therevada faiths. I visited two monks home, once, and they,nshsved heads, proper attire, and all explained what ways to pray, when, and how. Nichiren Shu is more monestary than Nichiren SGI. It is definitely more formal (which is a better wlrs than strict). What I like about them is thatbtheybread, recite, and write the Buddhas teachings as hebsaid to do. Nichiren shoshu is stict. Your back cant face their sscrament. There is a lot of bowing. Recitation of the lotus sutra is done a specific way. No other books are read by Shoshu. Nichiren Buddhism is actually Mahayana.

I dont hear much of formal practices of Zen. We have a zen monestary here which I would love to attend. They recitr the sutra in a specific way, and contrary to popular western belief, each zen practioners have a senior master to teach.

Except for a Nichiren Buddhism, and aome sects I know I left out eastern (folk) beliefs requires a master and apprentice. Nichiren Buddh ist, you must go through a ritual ceremony to formal be one as in other sects.

Western Buddhism is very different than other countries.

I am curious what eastern faiths you think are set in stone? Could you explain what you think they are and why?
I totally concur with your second statement about fsith being free and spontaneous.

 

[Windwalker]

You misunderstood me. What I meant was that the practices, while they do include expteric practice, are largely enteric, in that it is an inward spiritual journey that is taken.

I find this interesting to hear from your experience in this context. I can see what you are saying, because the sorts of practices (with what little exposure I have to them), are the sorts of things that are conducive to altered states of consciousness (ASC). So yes, those practicing them will likely have experiences. What this triggers in my thoughts are the Charismatic and Pentecostal Christian practices. I'm not speaking of their belief structures here, but the actual types of practices they engage in. There is typical a lot of trance-inducing practices, the preacher pounding on the pulpit like striking a tribal drum while chanting, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus", etc. (I've been in these meeting so I am speaking from first-hand experience). People "dance in the spirit", jump up in down in place, singing chant in repetitive music, swaying and rocking from side to side (Sufis do this too), and engaging in glossolalia, speaking in ecstatic utterances, and so forth. All of this is moving the practitioner into altered states of consciousness.

How they then interpret these experiences will of course be within the framework of their religious structures. For the Charismatic, these ASC are interpreted as the Holy Spirit moving in the church, sweeping in waves across the worshippers, touching individuals, speaking to the congregation. They are have an encounter with the supernatural. In tribal religions these may be seen as various animal spirits and the like. But they are both having an esoteric experience within the exoteric context of their religions, beliefs, practices, etc.

Our tribe does not use hallucinogens, but other do and this leads to clear enteric journeys. I personally use meditation to facilitate my spirituality. But in tribal practice, for example, a sing or a sweat, it is entirely internal.

I assume you mean esoteric journeys and not "enteric", which pertains to one's intestines? There is another factor here to mention, tribal practice as you are describing it can be understood more generically as group practice. This is the "we space" that is created by group participation in ritual form. This is unique in that it is a shared created space that is greater than any one of the individuals, but informs the individuals participating within it. There is a group energy that is created which itself can take the individual "out of" himself into a shared space. This very much fits my description of the Charismatic church experience. It is quite different than just sitting down and be taught lessons as a group. Everyone contributes, and that is a distinctly different thing. Agreed?

 

[JoStories]

I find this interesting to hear from your experience in this context. I can see what you are saying, because the sorts of practices (with what little exposure I have to them), are the sorts of things that are conducive to altered states of consciousness (ASC). So yes, those practicing them will likely have experiences. What this triggers in my thoughts are the Charismatic and Pentecostal Christian practices. I'm not speaking of their belief structures here, but the actual types of practices they engage in. There is typical a lot of trance-inducing practices, the preacher pounding on the pulpit like striking a tribal drum while chanting, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus", etc. (I've been in these meeting so I am speaking from first-hand experience). People "dance in the spirit", jump up in down in place, singing chant in repetitive music, swaying and rocking from side to side (Sufis do this too), and engaging in glossolalia, speaking in ecstatic utterances, and so forth. All of this is moving the practitioner into altered states of consciousness.

How they then interpret these experiences will of course be within the framework of their religious structures. For the Charismatic, these ASC are interpreted as the Holy Spirit moving in the church, sweeping in waves across the worshippers, touching individuals, speaking to the congregation. They are have an encounter with the supernatural. In tribal religions these may be seen as various animal spirits and the like. But they are both having an esoteric experience within the exoteric context of their religions, beliefs, practices, etc.


I assume you mean esoteric journeys and not "enteric", which pertains to one's intestines? There is another factor here to mention, tribal practice as you are describing it can be understood more generically as group practice. This is the "we space" that is created by group participation in ritual form. This is unique in that it is a shared created space that is greater than any one of the individuals, but informs the individuals participating within it. There is a group energy that is created which itself can take the individual "out of" himself into a shared space. This very much fits my description of the Charismatic church experience. It is quite different than just sitting down and be taught lessons as a group. Everyone contributes, and that is a distinctly different thing. Agreed?

First of all, ROFL....yes, I meant esoteric. I am a nurse who is working on research between my times here and my mind is sometimes stuck there. So sorry about that.
Now, that said, yes I agree and absolutely it fits the charismatic types of ACS. When I have one with just meditation, it is vastly different. I, too, have witnessed firsthand the 'speaking in tongues' in the Pentecostal churches. So I know what you are talking about. I read some time ago that there is some new halluginogen that is smoked and while first it makes one vomit and such, it then leads to very potent ACS of the more personal kind. One does this, according to th article, in a home with 'helpers' to manage the illness parts. I have not done this nor will I but its intriguing to learn about. And sadly, I cannot recall the name of the herb.

 

[JoStories]

I witness some therevada faiths. I visited two monks home, once, and they,nshsved heads, proper attire, and all explained what ways to pray, when, and how. Nichiren Shu is more monestary than Nichiren SGI. It is definitely more formal (which is a better wlrs than strict). What I like about them is thatbtheybread, recite, and write the Buddhas teachings as hebsaid to do. Nichiren shoshu is stict. Your back cant face their sscrament. There is a lot of bowing. Recitation of the lotus sutra is done a specific way. No other books are read by Shoshu. Nichiren Buddhism is actually Mahayana.

I dont hear much of formal practices of Zen. We have a zen monestary here which I would love to attend. They recitr the sutra in a specific way, and contrary to popular western belief, each zen practioners have a senior master to teach.

Except for a Nichiren Buddhism, and aome sects I know I left out eastern (folk) beliefs requires a master and apprentice. Nichiren Buddh ist, you must go through a ritual ceremony to formal be one as in other sects.

Western Buddhism is very different than other countries.

First, thanks Carlita! That was so helpful. I consider my path mostly eastern but I am not a part of any one tradition. If I had to say, it would be thereveda in nature but I observe this alone. Witty meditation, etc. but I can obviously see wha you are saying now. It's, IMO, far less organized than western faiths, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islamic faith but it does have it rituals.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I dont hear much of formal practices of Zen. We have a zen monestary here which I would love to attend. They recitr the sutra in a specific way, and contrary to popular western belief, each zen practioners have a senior master to teach.

I think a lot of people would be surprised how strict and formal Chan/Zen monasteries are, if all they know about the tradition is coming from paperback books and the Internet. It's an extremely austere practice that's designed to minimize distractions by creating a highly ordered way of life. Enlightenment experiences are expected to be very personal and subjective, but monasteries facilitate that by stripping away all the superficial stuff that people tend to identify with the self, so that there's nothing left but the nagging doubt. And yes, all practitioners are expected to learn from a teacher, and you don't get to learn the advanced methods (i.e. silent illumination and huatou) without direct supervision. On the other hand, all of that is true for laymen as well, and retreats are intended to imitate as much of the monastic experience as possible for a short time. Where it differs for the monks and nuns is that they don't get to go back to their ordinary lives after the retreat.

It is very much #2 (religion as personal exploration), but it's also very much not a case of doing whatever you feel like. But the really effective types of religion never are. It's always been about identifying with things beyond your conventional concept of self. Things that just puff up the ego and satisfy individual whims as they come aren't doing anybody any good.

 

[JoStories]

I think a lot of people would be surprised how strict and formal Chan/Zen monasteries are, if all they know about the tradition is coming from paperback books and the Internet. It's an extremely austere practice that's designed to minimize distractions by creating a highly ordered way of life. Enlightenment experiences are expected to be very personal and subjective, but monasteries facilitate that by stripping away all the superficial stuff that people tend to identify with the self, so that there's nothing left but the nagging doubt. And yes, all practitioners are expected to learn from a teacher, and you don't get to learn the advanced methods (i.e. silent illumination and huatou) without direct supervision. On the other hand, all of that is true for laymen as well, and retreats are intended to imitate as much of the monastic experience as possible for a short time. Where it differs for the monks and nuns is that they don't get to go back to their ordinary lives after the retreat.

It is very much #2 (religion as personal exploration), but it's also very much not a case of doing whatever you feel like. But the really effective types of religion never are. It's always been about identifying with things beyond your conventional concept of self. Things that just puff up the ego and satisfy individual whims as they come aren't doing anybody any good.

No I wish that that kind of instruction were available around here. Unfortunately, I live in the northeast, and here we don't have this kind of thing around. I know of at least one place in Massachusetts but that is 6 hours from here. Maybe my next life. Any suggestions for online resources?

 

[Vishvavajra]

No I wish that that kind of instruction were available around here. Unfortunately, I live in the northeast, and here we don't have this kind of thing around. I know of at least one place in Massachusetts but that is 6 hours from here. Maybe my next life. Any suggestions for online resources?

I don't know where you are exactly, but here is the website for a retreat center in Pine Bush, NY. If you look under "Teachings," the site also has online resources such as Youtube videos of dharma talks at the center and some things to read about the basic philosophy of the Chan tradition. If you really want to learn how to meditate in the Chan/Zen tradition and get the full experience, you could schedule a retreat as a kind of holiday, even if it is a bit of a drive.

At any rate, for anyone who is interested, I can attest that this lineage is legit and is geared towards helping lay practitioners to cultivate genuine practice. The teachings themselves are free, hence the online resources. They do ask for money for retreats, but only to maintain the center, not for profit, and if you consider that it includes room and board, it's less than you'd spend on vacation for the same amount of time. You can also see the rules for retreats, which include silence for the duration, designated work periods, designated eating times, designated rest periods, etc. What the list doesn't tell you is that you'll be getting up at 4am, and even with breaks and exercise your legs will be ready to fall off.

I'm still a wimp, so I've only done a couple of one-day retreats so far (not at that particular center). The multi-day ones are where you really get the monastic experience in brief. It's rough, but you learn a lot about yourself in the process, and that's the point. It's kind of like a very gentle, very quiet boot camp. It's still a means of personal religious exploration, but it's a far cry from the very casual, nonconformist image of Zen you often read about. Retreat (and by extension monastic life) is intended to be hard, to test people's patience, to wear out their resources, since that is how it prepares them for the tough moments in life—i.e. the practical application of all of this stuff.

 

[psychoslice]

For some religious dogma is a comfort, for others it's a limitation.

Yes even prison can be a comfort to many.

 

[JoStories]

I think a lot of people would be surprised how strict and formal Chan/Zen monasteries are, if all they know about the tradition is coming from paperback books and the Internet. It's an extremely austere practice that's designed to minimize distractions by creating a highly ordered way of life. Enlightenment experiences are expected to be very personal and subjective, but monasteries facilitate that by stripping away all the superficial stuff that people tend to identify with the self, so that there's nothing left but the nagging doubt. And yes, all practitioners are expected to learn from a teacher, and you don't get to learn the advanced methods (i.e. silent illumination and huatou) without direct supervision. On the other hand, all of that is true for laymen as well, and retreats are intended to imitate as much of the monastic experience as possible for a short time. Where it differs for the monks and nuns is that they don't get to go back to their ordinary lives after the retreat.

It is very much #2 (religion as personal exploration), but it's also very much not a case of doing whatever you feel like. But the really effective types of religion never are. It's always been about identifying with things beyond your conventional concept of self. Things that just puff up the ego and satisfy individual whims as they come aren't doing anybody any good.

I cannot than you enough for the information and the link. I do meditate regularly, as in daily, at the very least once. I have attended other types of retreats but this one in NY sounds amazing, I will check it out. Thank you again.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is a brief about Zen. Its a "strict" practice and unfortunetly three states from me. Hope this helps

The Eight Gates of Zen | Zen Mountain Monastery

"Zen is an ancestral lineage that traces itself back to Shakyamuni Buddha. Because it relies on the mind-to-mind transmission of its teachings, personal study with an authentic teacher is pivotal to training."

 

[Riverwolf]

You don't think conformity, rule/role based religion is "on the outside"? What are they conforming to if it's not something outside themselves?

Conformity is normal social behavior. There's a difference between conformity and loyalty.

Obedience in the esoteric sense is conformity to the inner voice, the higher truth within. I don't see conformity to religious rules so much of an exploration of the self. How do you?

The very idea that such a voice and truth exists came from someone else, or was invoked as a result of external stimuli.

Furthermore, certain methods of internal exploration requires a degree of conformity to advice from those who've taken the journey themselves, and by professional psychologists. Otherwise, the journey is quite dangerous, particularly for those with depression.

If we revisit what the OP said, "However, I think it is obvious that there are those that believe religion is an authoritative revealed type of thing, and those that think religion is an open exploration, seeking, or personal journey type of thing," it's pretty clear the dichotomy is between external authority (exoteric), and personal journey (esoteric). His dichotomy are those two, external authority versus personal journey. I'm not sure where agency is the separating line here. Help me out a little.

I don't think "external authority" is supposed to be synonymous with "exoteric", or the other with the other. My personal journey is very much an exoteric one, because it focuses on my relationship with the external world more than with my internal self.

 

[JoStories]

Here is a brief about Zen. Its a "strict" practice and unfortunetly three states from me. Hope this helps

The Eight Gates of Zen | Zen Mountain Monastery

"Zen is an ancestral lineage that traces itself back to Shakyamuni Buddha. Because it relies on the mind-to-mind transmission of its teachings, personal study with an authentic teacher is pivotal to training."

Thank you carlita. I have bookmarked this place as well. Both so are NY, which is about 6 to 8 hours from me. Thanks agsin.