Two Kinds of Salvation

[omega2xx]

You contradicting Prophet Isaiah who said Israel was assigned as light unto the Gentiles and Jesus who said the Jews were the light of the world. (Israel 42:6 and Mat. 5:14)

The context for Isa 42:6 starts in Isa 42:1, and Israel is not God'sd servant in that verse. The Servant is Jesus, the Christ..

The light in Mt 5:14 is Christians, not Israel.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The verse(I Jn 1:9) only mentions confession. That is all that is necessary. Of course the confession has to be sincere.

Right! And a sincere confession includes repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The context for Isa 42:6 starts in Isa 42:1, and Israel is not God'sd servant in that verse. The Servant is Jesus, the Christ..

The light in Mt 5:14 is Christians, not Israel.

Okay, let's read the text: "This is My servant whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom I delight..." Now, let's see what the Prophet says in 41:8,9. "But you ISRAEL My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham My friend. You are My servant; I have chosen you and I have not rejected you." Israel is even better than a servant to HaShem. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. (Exodus 4:22,23) Is it enough for you to become a little more friendly with Israel? I mean, Israel the People, not Israel the Land.

Now, regarding the light in Mat. 5:14, if you read Mat. 5:1 and 7:28, Jesus was delivering his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he said, "You are the light of the world." If he was speaking to the
Gentiles, "You" would have been the Gentiles but, I am sorry for you, Jesus was speaking to the Jews.

 

[omega2xx]

Lazarus was a parable because the NT does not have the power to contradict the Word of God in the Tanach. To die a second time implies resurrection and the whole gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach says that, once dead, no one will ever return. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.)

None of the verse you just quoted say the dead can't be resurrected. The one from Job is close, but no cigar. Both testaments give examples of someone dying an coming back to life. l The son of lthe sidow of Zarephath(I ki 17:22. Jesus raised several people from the dead, including His friend Lazarus.

 

[omega2xx]

Okay, let's read the text: "This is My servant whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom I delight..." Now, let's see what the Prophet says in 41:8,9. "But you ISRAEL My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham My friend. You are My servant; I have chosen you and I have not rejected you." Israel is even better than a servant to HaShem. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. (Exodus 4:22,23) Is it enough for you to become a little more friendly with Israel? I mean, Israel the People, not Israel the Land.

All true beilivers in God are His servant and His children, but every mention of servant does not refer to Israel.

Now, regarding the light in Mat. 5:14, if you read Mat. 5:1 and 7:28, Jesus was delivering his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he said, "You are the light of the world." If he was speaking to the
Gentiles, "You" would have been the Gentiles but, I am sorry for you, Jesus was speaking to the Jews.

First of all you don't know if they were all Jews, which would be very unlikely. Second Mt 5:2-3, says He began to teach them, the disciples in v2. All Christians are disciples of Jesus, That makes us the light of the world, because God is the Father of lights(Jas 1:17) and we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus(Gal 3:26).

 

[Ben Avraham]

First of all you don't know if they were all Jews, which would be very unlikely. Second Mt 5:2-3, says He began to teach them, the disciples in v2. All Christians are disciples of Jesus, That makes us the light of the world, because God is the Father of lights(Jas 1:17) and we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus(Gal 3:26).

First of all, there were no Christians at Jesus' lifetime. They came about for the first time through Paul in Antioch if you read Acts 11:26. That was about 40 years after Jesus had been gone. Second, Gentiles by definition are all non-Jews. Why would Jesus forbid his disciples to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans? (Mat. 10:5,6) Do you think he would do that to the sons of God through faith in "Christ?" Not logical; don't you think so?

 

[Ben Avraham]

None of the verse you just quoted say the dead can't be resurrected. The one from Job is close, but no cigar. Both testaments give examples of someone dying an coming back to life. l The son of lthe sidow of Zarephath(I ki 17:22. Jesus raised several people from the dead, including His friend Lazarus.

I bet any thing you didn't even bother to read them. You must read them if you want to refute my views against bodily resurrection, and tell me why you think I am wrong.

 

[omega2xx]

First of all, there were no Christians at Jesus' lifetime.

Of course there was. Nicodemus and Lazarus and his 2 daughters, and the disciples for example.

They came about for the first time through Paul in Antioch if you read Acts 11:26. That was about 40 years after Jesus had been gone.

That is when they were first called Christians, There were Christians before that, but they didn't know what to call them yet.

Second, Gentiles by definition are all non-Jews. Why would Jesus forbid his disciples to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans? (Mat. 10:5,6) Do you think he would do that to the sons of God through faith in "Christ?" Not logical; don't you think so?

You have jumped out of the context. Mt 5:2 Is only about teaching His disciples. Look at v1--when Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain...the disciples came to him. The crowd did not come to him.

 

[omega2xx]

I bet any thing you didn't even bother to read them. You must read them if you want to refute my views against bodily resurrection, and tell me why you think I am wrong.

I read them all. If you wan;t to reject the bodily resurrections in the NT, fine, but how do you reject the widows son being bodily resurrected from the dead?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I read them all. If you wan;t to reject the bodily resurrections in the NT, fine, but how do you reject the widows son being bodily resurrected from the dead?

That was a parable Omega. In a parable, every thing is possible even for a cow to fly. Are you trying to tell me that the widow's son had to die twice? Now, ask yourself; "God Almighty, that's true!" Now, if you wonder what to do, let me know and I might have a word of two to help you.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Of course there was. Nicodemus and Lazarus and his 2 daughters, and the disciples for example.

That is when they were first called Christians, There were Christians before that, but they didn't know what to call them yet.

You have jumped out of the context. Mt 5:2 Is only about teaching His disciples. Look at v1--when Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain...the disciples came to him. The crowd did not come to him.

For heaven's sake Omega. Don't put yourself in a condition to indicate that you are beyond repair! Lazarus never had daughters or children at all. Martha and Mary were his sisters. Aren't you amazing? I think you are doing this on purpose for not being serious at all.

You don't even have an idea for the origin of the term "Christianity." The disciples in Antioch started being called Christians because Paul spent a whole year preaching about Jesus as "Christ." That was about 40 years after Jesus had been gone.

The Sermon of the Mount, Jesus delivered to a crowd of Jews if you read the beginning of the sermon with Mat. 5:1 and the end with Mat. 7:28. Read, Omega, with some focus on the details! Am I as a Jew
to explain the NT to you, a Christian!

 

[Muffled]

Two Kinds of Salvation.

1. Personal salvation and;

2. Universal salvation.

Only universal salvation is free; personal salvation is as expensive as the kind of transgression committed against the Law.

Universal salvation is the one promised to Noah through the Noahide Covenant which the Lord established with all Mankind. Soon after the Flood, the Lord promised Noah never to allow another catastrophe the size of the Flood as all living beings, except for Noah's family, had suffered universal destruction. What about if Mankind turned again as evil as at the time of Noah? The Lord had to raise a new people from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the pledge or assurance to His promise of universal salvation for Mankind. Israel had risen. Now, as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the earth would remain seed-time and harvest and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night would not cease. In other words, as long as the natural laws functioned properly, Mankind was saved; freely saved. (Gen. 8:21,22)

Prophet Jeremiah must have read the above text and connected the Lord's pledge with the permanence of Israel as a People before the Lord forever as long as the natural laws functioned properly, thus, Israel would guarantee the Lord's promise of universal salvation of Mankind. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Reading the Christian NT the other day, I came about John 4:22 and I was reminded that Jesus must have read both texts above; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and concluded that indeed salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews.

Now, for personal salvation, the bill would have to be paid according to the transgression of the Law; the law of cause and effect; some times as expensive as the loss of life itself. This kind of salvation is so serious that, as Jesus himself said, if we come to the Temple to plead for salvation and we are reminded that some one has an issue with us, we must leave all behind and go set things right with our neighbor and only then return to the altar to plead for salvation. (Mat. 5:23,24)

I don't believe the text says that anywhere.

I don't believe you are talking about salvation but rather payment for sins. I believe personal salvation is free through Jesus. Also I believe Jesus has paid for the sins of those who receive Him as Lord and Savior.

I don't believe this is so. There is a fire to come and many will perish in it. The promise was only to not flood the earth again. In fact Jesus says the end will be like the days of Noah:
Mat. 24:37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

I believe there is no text that supports that view.

I believe no text says that.


I believe that is a non--sequitur - the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

I believe that does not fit the context and from the Jews does mean one from the Jews. There is no difference.

I believe that is false; the text reads bringing a gift not seeking salvation.

 

[Muffled]

Well, I disagree with you too because, the Word of God cannot be dead as Jesus has been dead for about 2000 years by now.

I believe that covers it in a general way and I could say the same but it wouldn't be as accurate. If one attends an Orthodox Jewish Synagogue one could consider one's religion as Orthodox Judaism even though I don't believe in either case that there is an orthodoxy in Judaism or in being Jewish. I would consider Mega and Ultra as just an attempt to supersede other Orthodox groups that might hold a different belief. At least the new name although not completely accurate covers all the bases.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe that covers it in a general way and I could say the same but it wouldn't be as accurate. If one attends an Orthodox Jewish Synagogue one could consider one's religion as Orthodox Judaism even though I don't believe in either case that there is an orthodoxy in Judaism or in being Jewish. I would consider Mega and Ultra as just an attempt to supersede other Orthodox groups that might hold a different belief. At least the new name although not completely accurate covers all the bases.

Too bad that I am not an Orthodox Jew to find sense in this verbiage about Orthodox Judaism.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I don't believe the text says that anywhere. I don't believe you are talking about salvation but rather payment for sins. I believe personal salvation is free through Jesus. Also I believe Jesus has paid for the sins of those who receive Him as Lord and Savior.

I don't believe this is so. There is a fire to come and many will perish in it. The promise was only to not flood the earth again. In fact Jesus says the end will be like the days of Noah:
Mat. 24:37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

I believe there is no text that supports that view. I believe no text says that. I believe that is a non--sequitur - the conclusion does not follow from the premises. I believe that does not fit the context and from the Jews does mean one from the Jews. There is no difference. I believe that is false; the text reads bringing a gift not seeking salvation.

You believe too much. Usually one who believes too much does not know as much. Knowledge does not come from believing but from learning. No, I am not talking about salvation from sin but from universal catastrophes of the size of the flood. I did not say from another flood. It could be fire or atomic destruction. Jesus had nothing to do with personal salvation. He rather said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law to achieve salvation. (Luke 16:29-31) And for him to pay for the sins of others, he would contradict the Prophets of the Most High who say that no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20)

The promise not to flood the earth again does not have to be only with water. It could be with fire or total atomic fall-outs. Jesus will never return from the grave. He was a Jew and he believed in Psalms 49:12,20. The eternal home of the dead is called Sheol aka the grave. Your assumption that there is no difference between the collective concept and the individual one is based on the power of Christian preconceived notions.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I read them all. If you wan;t to reject the bodily resurrections in the NT, fine, but how do you reject the widows son being bodily resurrected from the dead?

You are confusing resurrection with resuscitation. The case with the son of the widow, Elijah had to get into the motions to apply resuscitation to save that child who had got a sun stroke. (I Kings 17:21) It was probably too hot.

 

[omega2xx]

You are confusing resurrection with resuscitation. The case with the son of the widow, Elijah had to get into the motions to apply resuscitation to save that child who had got a sun stroke. (I Kings 17:21) It was probably too hot.

What is it about "dead" you do not understand? You are adding to God's word. "It does not say the boy died of sunstroke.

 

[Ben Avraham]

What is it about "dead" you do not understand? You are adding to God's word. "It does not say the boy died of sunstroke.

It didn't have to say "the was dead." All you need is to see what Elijah did to make him recover consciousness. Not so
hard to figure. Go and read the text again. It is in I Kings 17:21.

 

[omega2xx]

It didn't have to say "the was dead." All you need is to see what Elijah did to make him recover consciousness. Not so
hard to figure. Go and read the text again. It is in I Kings 17:21.

You don't even understand the verse you quoted---...let this childs LIFE return to him.

v22 - The Lord heard the voice of Elijah and the LIFE of the child to him and he revived.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You don't even understand the verse you quoted---...let this childs LIFE return to him.

v22 - The Lord heard the voice of Elijah and the LIFE of the child to him and he revived.

Life in this text is a reference to the breath of life that returned to the boy. You cannot force the Tanach to contradict
itself because it says loud and clear that once dead no one will ever return from the grave which is the eternal home of the dead. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.)