Two Kinds of Salvation

[savagewind]

The idea of universal salvation, that everyone will be saved and enjoy eternal life, does not find support in sacred Scripture. Genesis 9:11 simply records; "Yes, I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all flesh be destroyed by the waters of a flood, and never again will a flood bring the earth to ruin." This is not a promise that no one will be destroyed, but simply that a global Deluge would not reoccur. Jesus Christ himself warned; "Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

Except that you read that scripture as a prophesy that some will be saved and some will be destroyed.
Why not read it this way for a change?

The sheep are TO everlasting life because they learn to be no part of the word, they seek יְ֭הוָה for peace and they put on love for even their enemies.

The goats are they that cause destruction because they refuse, willingly or unwillingly, to walk the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Walking with Jesus is for life. You yourself say there is only one other way. They are called goats who are walking the way to destruction. Matthew 15:14

 

[savagewind]

Idol means a worthless thing. Anything without יְ֭הוָה saves is worthless.

 

[savagewind]

Someone else says, "scrap it" And then..........................LOL

 

[Scuba Pete]

"Lives" is something Earth things do.

So, you're joining the NY Times in proclaiming God to be dead???

A single god is not single anymore if that god lives in all believers.

The scriptures seem to disagree...

1 Corinthians 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ. -NIV

Don't try to confine the Spirit to your physical limitations.

 

[savagewind]

So, you're joining the NY Times in proclaiming God to be dead???


The scriptures seem to disagree...

1 Corinthians 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ. -NIV

Don't try to confine the Spirit to your physical limitations.

God is not dead. But scripture which YOU trust says, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Look up another meaning of "en". It means with.

Matthew 28:20 Why doesn't it say there that he will be "in" us?

Whether we live or die we live to god

Romans 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.

If you believe God's "lives" in you, then when you die will God's spirit die in you?

Living is about cell divide and reproducing. God doesn't do that.

 

[savagewind]

Don't try to confine the Spirit to your physical limitations.

These words might be Jesus trying to get through TO YOU.

 

[savagewind]

Jesus did not do away with the law. Correct?

What does the Law say about the contact of the clean with the unclean?

1 John 1:8

Proverbs 20:9

Question: Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

Answer: The people who say God's spirit lives in them.

 

[savagewind]

If Jesus's Spirit lives in you, everything you do Christ does too.

Tell me, who should want to be instructed by The Great Teacher after he or she learns
that to do so is to be inhabited by Him?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Jesus did not do away with the law. Correct?

Jesus fulfilled the law. Like a mortgage, when you fulfill it, you are no longer under any obligation to keep paying. You didn't "do away" with the mortgage, you simply fulfilled the requirements. The payment was obviously Jesus' life.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. -NIV

If Jesus's Spirit lives in you, everything you do Christ does too.

If only it were so black and white. I do not see your concept supported in scriptures at all. However, I do see the Spirit transforming us with "ever-increasing glory".

2 Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. -NIV

 

[savagewind]

Jesus fulfilled the law. Like a mortgage, when you fulfill it, you are no longer under any obligation to keep paying. You didn't "do away" with the mortgage, you simply fulfilled the requirements. The payment was obviously Jesus' life.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. -NIV


If only it were so black and white. I do not see your concept supported in scriptures at all. However, I do see the Spirit transforming us with "ever-increasing glory".

2 Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. -NIV

You didn't answer the question. Why doesn't Matthew 28:20 say "in"?

 

[Scuba Pete]

You didn't answer the question. Why doesn't Matthew 28:20 say "in"?

You would have to ask Matthew. It was already a run-on sentence and it's been translated twice: Aramaic => Greek (Koine) => English.

It certainly doesn't negate any other scripture. Not in my opinion.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The idea of universal salvation, that everyone will be saved and enjoy eternal life, does not find support in sacred Scripture. Genesis 9:11 simply records; "Yes, I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all flesh be destroyed by the waters of a flood, and never again will a flood bring the earth to ruin." This is not a promise that no one will be destroyed, but simply that a global Deluge would not reoccur. Jesus Christ himself warned; "Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

Nice try Rusra, but I never mentioned any thing about eternal life. The only thing eternal about man is death. Eternal life belongs with HaShem only and it cannot be shared with man. The reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Genesus 3:22,23) It means that man cannot live forever. The first kind of salvation is from universal destruction of the size of the Flood. Please, read the thread again and now without Christian preconceived notions.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jesus is not dead and his Spirit lives inside of me.

Of course Pete! It is called faith. That's the only thing you have as evidence that Jesus is not dead. That's the only thing you can prove only to yourself and to no one else. The point is that you have Jesus as if he was not a Jew but a Christian. It doesn't go that way.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Christians believe in a resurrected Christ Jesus. It is written that he ascended to Heaven, but even before that he was given all authority on Earth and in Heaven. Some Christians don't believe he was given the authority to speak, but I do. It is not like hearing words like here on Earth.
It is written that we should ask for more wisdom. Some people search the scriptures for it. They search the scriptures for meaning. I ask for it.

I asked for an answer to this: Why can't many people hear?

The answer: Trust in יְ֭הוָה with all the heart and on understanding do not lean. Proverbs 3:5 Psalms 37:5

I think that leaning on anything to believe in it shuts down a person's ability to hear.

Another answer I got. The Word will not speak around an idol. To believe in something that isn't true to lean on it creates an idol between you and The Word. To hear you MUST get rid of all your idols.

Of course! That's according to the gospel of Paul aka the NT. But Jesus was a Jew and, his gospel was the Tanach which he always referred to as the Word of God. The NT he never even
dreamed it would ever rise. According to the gospel of Jesus, once dead, no one will ever rise from the grave. Evidence? Read II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; etc.

 

[Ben Avraham]

~;> where is the physical body
so that we may not disagree unto you
coz we are disagreeing unto one interpretation of yours about the word of god that is dead
without knowing first
how the word of god
took the form of a human being

. ... just askin
if we may say so ... .

godbless
unto all always

Really! Do you expect to see the physical body of a person who died 2000 years ago! Jesus would have to be a Pharaoh whose body was embalmed so that you could see his body today. Sorry, but you are ridiculing yourself to embarrassment, no offense meant.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jesus did not do away with the law. Correct?

What does the Law say about the contact of the clean with the unclean?

1 John 1:8

Proverbs 20:9

Question: Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

Answer: The people who say God's spirit lives in them.

Correct, the Law of the Decalogue. That's the Law Jesus said to listen to "Moses" about. (Luke
16:29-31) And that applies to all of us, Jews and Gentiles. All those instructions about clean
and unclean, are rituals not for you but for the Jews only. So, you have less to worry about.

 

[savagewind]

Correct, the Law of the Decalogue. That's the Law Jesus said to listen to "Moses" about. (Luke 16:29-31)
And that applies to all of us, Jews and Gentiles.
All those instructions about clean and unclean, are not for you but for the Jews only. So, you have less to worry about.

The laws other than the Ten Commandments were for the Jews to obey. They were never meant for anyone else but Jews and those who might be allowed to be joined to them, but they are good for learning by anybody though, imho. Do you agree or disagree that instructions to the Jewish Nation are good for learning something by people other than Jews?

Also, as an aside, do you believe God gave the Jews laws to worry about? Is the Law for learning to worry?

 

[Ben Avraham]

The laws other than the Ten Commandments were for the Jews to obey. They were never meant for anyone else but Jews and those who might be allowed to be joined to them, but they are good for learning by anybody though, imho. Do you agree or disagree that instructions to the Jewish Nation are good for learning something by people other than Jews?

Also, as an aside, do you believe God gave the Jews laws to worry about? Is the Law for learning to worry?

Agreed; the laws other than the Ten Commandments were for the Jews only. They are called
ritual laws. I hope you are happy to know that you have much less to worry about. Rituals are
things of religions. They all have them.

I agree also that the Gentiles can learn a lot from some of the ritual laws given to the Jews.
Now, I don't believe God gave us laws to worry about but to enjoy obeying them.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Of course Pete! It is called faith. That's the only thing you have as evidence that Jesus is not dead. That's the only thing you can prove only to yourself and to no one else. The point is that you have Jesus as if he was not a Jew but a Christian. It doesn't go that way.

The existence of God been revealed to me. I get that it's easy for those this has not happened to, to trivialize the experience. So what? You have absolutely no evidence that I'm wrong. You're assuming that since you have not experienced it, no one has. Your faith that I am wrong is completely blind while my faith is based on my personal evidence. Your baseless faith seems good enough for you while my, more evidenced faith is just fine for me.

 

[ukok102nak]

Really! Do you expect to see the physical body of a person who died 2000 years ago! Jesus would have to be a Pharaoh whose body was embalmed so that you could see his body today. Sorry, but you are ridiculing yourself to embarrassment, no offense meant.

~;> as you want to put it
so literally on your point of view
then
perhaps we could also say this things literally
that the only record about jesus to be proclaimed as the one who died on the cross were all written in the bible itself
meaning
if jesus existence were not been written then
even his words will not be seen nor
not be heard in this present time of ours

thats why
we have a standard unto this life
to know the truth
as you've also learned those words of god through the scriptures
therefore its fair enough
if we should follow your standard also
so that we may also learn the truth
about the words of god the father almighty
and his only begotten son
christjesus our lord and saviour
along with all that is holy

now
remember your words
:read: (so as it is written)
Really! Do you expect to see the physical body of a person who died 2000 years ago! Jesus would have to be a Pharaoh whose body was embalmed so that you could see his body today. Sorry, but you are ridiculing yourself to embarrassment, no offense meant.

and then now
this is what the bible says
unto someone who died but his body was still under the care of the people that were considered as his people
as it is written
:read:
Acts 2:29 "Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that one of his descendants would sit on his throne,
31 he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left in helll , nor did his flesh see decay.

do you believed unto the words of god
that were been told to
the patriarch David, he foreseeing this (who)
spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left in helll , nor did his flesh see decay.
so as it is written
:read:
Psalms49
1 (49:1) For the Leader; a Psalm of the sons of Korah. (49:2) Hear this, all ye peoples; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world,
2 (49:3) Both low and high, rich and poor together.
3 (49:4) My mouth shall speak wisdom, and the meditation of my heart shall be understanding.
4 (49:5) I will incline mine ear to a parable; I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
5 (49:6) Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my supplanters compasseth me about,
6 (49:7) Of them that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches?
7 (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to G-d a ransom for him--
8 (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever--
9 (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.

probably you can
say somethin about this statement of ours
by showing a scripture
that will corroborate unto your statement
regardin from some expection to see the physical body of a person who died 2000 years ago!
indeed as youown opinion tells that
Jesus would have to be a Pharaoh whose body was embalmed so that we could see his body today.
indeed
we know you felt very Sorry about this
but
you are ridiculing yourself to embarrassment, by not knowing the writtings about the resurrection
in the very scripture itself
(remember
we have a standard unto this life
to know the truth
as you've also learned those words of god through the scriptures
therefore its fair enough
if we should follow your standard also
so that we may also learn the truth
about the words of god the father almighty
and his only begotten son
christjesus our lord and saviour
along with all that is holy)

by the way
no offense meant
for we only do the thing as it is
how is meant to be
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always