Two Things That Confuse Me About Christianity

[SeekingAllTruth]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

 

[Trailblazer]

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

Sorry I cannot answer these questions but I was never a Christian and I do not know the Bible very well.

In the Baha'i Faith we do not have the concepts of atonement and salvation because there is nothing to atone for and nothing to be saved from, except our own lower natures. I guess you could call that our selfish sinful nature, but we do not believe it was inherited from Adam and Eve.

Well, maybe I spoke too soon so I came back to edit this post.

Regarding salvation, if I was going to pick between 1-3, I would pick No 3 because I believe God wants salvation for all people, although I do not believe that God is the Savior of all people. I believe we save ourselves by our own beliefs and actions. I believe that #1 and #2 are completely false.

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Sorry I cannot answer these questions but I was never a Christian and I do not know the Bible very well.

In the Baha'i Faith we do not have the concepts of atonement and salvation because there is nothing to atone for and nothing to be saved from, except our own lower natures. I guess you could call that our selfish sinful nature, but we do not believe it was inherited from Adam and Eve.

Well, maybe I spoke too soon so I came back to edit this post.

Regarding salvation, if I was going to pick between 1-3, I would pick No 3 because I believe God wants salvation for all people, although I do not believe that God is the Savior of all people. I believe we save ourselves by our own beliefs and actions. I believe that #1 and #2 are completely false.

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

Thanks for your feedback, Trailblazer. Of the two, No 1 has always caused me the greatest confusion. I've seen Christians get into a fistfights over eternal torment vs universal salvation, so polarizing is this issue. Of course there is also Jesus saying, "Without believing in me, nobody gets to heaven" which always sounded like church propaganda to me. Of course for atheists annihilation is no different from what they believe now anyway. This is what happens when churchmen are allowed to monkey with Bible manuscripts over a 1500 year period. Then there's Calvinism which says God chooses who he wants to save and just lets the others go to hell. I mean the popular phrase among Christians, "God doesn't send anybody to hell, they send themselves to hell" is totally bogus when it comes to Calvinism because people didn't choose to do evil, God programmed them to choose evil under Calvinism. All this used to give me headaches until I discovered the best cure for a headache was to ditch the whole thing.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello!
I thought you might find this enlightening....
(Look especially at paragraph 29 on down, discussing “torment” & the related term “jailer” in Greek):

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101988040?q=basanizo&p=par

Keep in mind how the Bible describes the dead...they “know nothing”, “their thoughts perish”. — Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Of course there is also Jesus saying, "Without believing in me, nobody gets to heaven" which always sounded like church propaganda to me.

That’s a wise stance, keeping an open mind...not being so gullible.

Did not Jesus say, “Happy are the meek, since they will inherit the earth”? — Matthew 5:5

Everybody’s about ‘going to heaven’....I’d like to live in the flesh, forever. Do you remember what Revelation 21:3-4 says? “the tent of God is with mankind....and death will be no more.”

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Hello!
I thought you might find this enlightening....
(Look especially at paragraph 29 on down, discussing “torment” & the related term “jailer” in Greek):

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101988040?q=basanizo&p=par

Keep in mind how the Bible describes the dead...they “know nothing”, “their thoughts perish”. — Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4

The way I read matthew 25 41-46 is that only those who don't feed the hungry, and clothe the naked and visit criminals in prison will go into fire and torment eternally. Nothing in there about going to eternal fire for not believing in Jesus.

So which of the 3 do you believe?

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for your feedback, Trailblazer. Of the two, No 1 has always caused me the greatest confusion. I've seen Christians get into a fistfights over eternal torment vs universal salvation, so polarizing is this issue. Of course there is also Jesus saying, "Without believing in me, nobody gets to heaven" which always sounded like church propaganda to me. Of course for atheists annihilation is no different from what they believe now anyway. This is what happens when churchmen are allowed to monkey with Bible manuscripts over a 1500 year period. Then there's Calvinism which says God chooses who he wants to save and just lets the others go to hell. I mean the popular phrase among Christians, "God doesn't send anybody to hell, they send themselves to hell" is totally bogus when it comes to Calvinism because people didn't choose to do evil, God programmed them to choose evil under Calvinism. All this used to give me headaches until I discovered the best cure for a headache was to ditch the whole thing.

Looking at Christianity from the outside, it sure looks like a big mess and lots of confusion and contradictions. Baha'is believe the older religions cannot be repaired so religion has to be renewed in every age and that this is 'one reason' that God sends a new Messenger in every age, to clean up the mess humans made of the previous religions. That is what Baha'u'llah was referring to in this passage. "His Manifestation" refers to Baha'u'llah.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

 

[Trailblazer]

Nothing in there about going to eternal fire for not believing in Jesus.

But if a person believed in Jesus he would do the things that Jesus teaches. That is the whole point of believing.

 

[Brian2]

This is what happens when churchmen are allowed to monkey with Bible manuscripts over a 1500 year period.

I think it is more a case of errors creeping in without any intent to change the Bible usually.

 

[Brian2]

Hello!
I thought you might find this enlightening....
(Look especially at paragraph 29 on down, discussing “torment” & the related term “jailer” in Greek):

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101988040?q=basanizo&p=par

Keep in mind how the Bible describes the dead...they “know nothing”, “their thoughts perish”. — Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4

Their plans perish, as in what they were planning in their earthly life.
The dead may not know anything, but that does not mean that they cannot speculate.

 

[1213]

...
Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

I would rely on what Bible actually says, not to theories of people. And I have understood from the Bible that salvation means sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the judgment that would otherwise come because of sin. Also disciples of Jesus can forgive sins simply like in this (as also Jesus did Luke 5:21-25, John 8:11):

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Salvation does not necessary mean that person also gets eternal life, because it is promised for righteous. And if person doesn’t become righteous, when his sins are forgiven, the forgiveness is not useful, because person continues in sin.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

There must happen change in person so that he becomes righteous.

…Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

…as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

But if a person believed in Jesus he would do the things that Jesus teaches. That is the whole point of believing.

Sadly, a large percentage of Christians attempt to follow Jesus only because they're trying to stay out of hell. They've been taught to be terrified of hell since they were children. Many Christians want to escape Christianity because they want to be free of Christianity's constraints but they dare not for fear of suffering in torment eternally.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I think it is more a case of errors creeping in without any intent to change the Bible usually.

It is in some cases. In others the texts were deliberately changed to fit prevailing thoughts. The story of the woman caught in adultery isn't even in the original copies of John from the 4-5th centuries. It was added in about the 8th century. So Jesus never said, "Let him who is without fault cast the first stone."

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I would rely on what Bible actually says, not to theories of people. And I have understood from the Bible that salvation means sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the judgment that would otherwise come because of sin. Also disciples of Jesus can forgive sins simply like in this (as also Jesus did Luke 5:21-25, John 8:11):

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Salvation does not necessary mean that person also gets eternal life, because it is promised for righteous. And if person doesn’t become righteous, when his sins are forgiven, the forgiveness is not useful, because person continues in sin.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

There must happen change in person so that he becomes righteous.

…Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

…as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

One of those forms of atonement has to be the right one. Of the 7, I'd say 2,3,4, or 5.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sadly, a large percentage of Christians attempt to follow Jesus only because they're trying to stay out of hell. They've been taught to be terrified of hell since they were children. Many Christians want to escape Christianity because they want to be free of Christianity's constraints but they dare not for fear of suffering in torment eternally.

You are right that Christians have been indoctrinated to believe in hell, and some Christians cannot escape Christianity because they are afraid of going to hell. This is true for some Christians, but not all Christians. Sure Christians want to stay out of hell, who doesn't, but many Christians also want to do the right thing by following the teachings of Jesus, and I consider this laudable.

Funny you mention this as there is a Christian on another thread who came right out and said that he is a Christian because he is afraid of going to hell.

It is a Baha'i belief that we will enter heaven but that should never be the motive for our beliefs or our actions.

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise.... Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

You are right that Christians have been indoctrinated to believe in hell, and some Christians cannot escape Christianity because they are afraid of going to hell. This is true for some Christians, but not all Christians. Sure Christians want to stay out of hell, who doesn't, but many Christians also want to do the right thing by following the teachings of Jesus, and I consider this laudable.

Funny you mention this as there is a Christian on another thread who came right out and said that he is a Christian because he is afraid of going to hell.

It is a Baha'i belief that we will enter heaven but that should never be the motive for our beliefs or our actions.

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise.... Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78

It's nice that some of the newer Far east religions are ditching the old Zoroastrian concept of eternal punishment (which the Christians adopted with a vengeance). There's no place in theology of reconciling a loving God with one that hates enough to torture weak human beings forever. Here's a response from someone to a person who expressed this paralyzing fear of hell:

Hi w and welcome.

I'm really sorry to read of your situation.

Hell is a human construct, not a divine one. A way that allowed the early church to build up its power on earth: tell everyone you're damned unless you follow our path and join our church. It's really a massive con job - a type of existential blackmail.

If you look at the idea seriously, it's impossible to reconcile the notion of a loving god with the idea that he keeps a personal torture chamber. What would be the point? No just god is going to condemn a person to eternal, infinite punishment for finite crimes.

It's obviously a completely made up notion; a scare tactic to stop common people from questioning the church's power on earth. Don't give it any credence.

Expressed so concisely yet so eloquently.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

This is making things way too complicated. First off - yes there is a heaven and a hell. One of those will be our destination. But God hasn't appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation. If we just obey his word, and do our best to serve him, we can make heaven our home. Salvation is for whosoever will. He gave us all a free choice to serve him or not to serve him. He is no respecter of persons.

The Messiah's blood is the atonement for our sins. We just need to repent - in other words turn from our sins. (Do our best to go out of the sinning business.) Then be baptized in his name for the forgiveness of the sins we have committed. That is where the blood is applied. Then he has promised to fill us with his Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 Then just do our best to serve him. If we make a mistake after baptism - make it right - ask him to forgive us and then forget about it, and continue to do our best.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

This is making things way too complicated. First off - yes there is a heaven and a hell. One of those will be our destination. But God hasn't appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation. If we just obey his word, and do our best to serve him, we can make heaven our home. Salvation is for whosoever will. He gave us all a free choice to serve him or not to serve him. He is no respecter of persons.

The Messiah's blood is the atonement for our sins. We just need to repent - in other words turn from our sins. (Do our best to go out of the sinning business.) Then be baptized in his name for the forgiveness of the sins we have committed. That is where the blood is applied. Then he has promised to fill us with his Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 Then just do our best to serve him. If we make a mistake after baptism - make it right - ask him to forgive us and then forget about it, and continue to do our best.

What about

..."the living God, who is the Savior of all people" 1 Timothy 4:10

and

...suffering “the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thess. 1:8).

 

[TrueBeliever37]

What about

..."the living God, who is the Savior of all people" 1 Timothy 4:10

and

...suffering “the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thess. 1:8).

Both are true. God has provided salvation for all people - whosoever will. Those who choose not to accept and obey his plan of salvation will pay a heavy price.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Both are true. God has provided salvation for all people - whosoever will. Those who choose not to accept and obey his plan of salvation will pay a heavy price.

But this can't be because 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says:

God who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Says right there, "God will save all men." I don't see an "IF" condition in the verse.