U.S. Military Officers violate Lt. Ehren Watada' Freedom of Religion

[Booko]

at the same time, someone's sense of horror and objection could spring upon them in battle, and not when faced with the mere idea of killing.

In which case, you always have the options Baha'is had before the US gov't realized that we really really weren't going to shoot anyone.

You could order us to deploy, you could order us to engage the enemy, you could order us to aim the weapon, and we'd do all of that -- just not shoot it.

After a few dead Baha'is, they figured out we were serious, and now any Baha'i in the military is given non-comm (not CO) status.

 

[Booko]

There's the religious...I'll say leaders, I don't know the actual term...for every faith who travel with the soldiers?

Chaplains. Though they don't represent every faith by any means. You might be a Muslim and have a Protestant chaplain, or vice versa. But they're trained to be sorta...non-denominational.

Though "non denominational" here usually means "Christian" and ... oh, maybe a Jew.

 

[ayani]

In which case, you always have the options Baha'is had before the US gov't realized that we really really weren't going to shoot anyone.

You could order us to deploy, you could order us to engage the enemy, you could order us to aim the weapon, and we'd do all of that -- just not shoot it.

ok. but wouldn't that get them in trouble with superiors? even if they did survive a shoot-out?

what i'm saying is that i sympathize with those folks who get into the action of war and fighting and are like "oh my god! i had no idea! i can't do this!" and that they shouldn't be obliged to shoot or to obey orders to shoot / run people over with tanks / raid houses / beat people / whatever is being asked of them. this is basically what, it seems, Watada is facing as an issue. and possible punishment for his rejection of fighting.

 

[MaddLlama]

But, it's not like this guy just joined the army and had a revelation. He's a leuitenant, he had to have SOME experience, and plenty of time to have an "oh my god, I have to do this" moment. To make that rank, you need at least several years of experience. I highly doubt it took him this long to realize that.

I feel no sympathy for him at all, and I wuld bet that he's just using religion as an excuse to get him out of trouble for not following orders.

 

[WrongWay]

ok. but wouldn't that get them in trouble with superiors? even if they did survive a shoot-out?

what i'm saying is that i sympathize with those folks who get into the action of war and fighting and are like "oh my god! i had no idea! i can't do this!" and that they shouldn't be obliged to shoot or to obey orders to shoot / run people over with tanks / raid houses / beat people / whatever is being asked of them. this is basically what, it seems, Watada is facing as an issue. and possible punishment for his rejection of fighting.

I think they are fully obliged to shoot or to obey orders to shoot once in action. Them not shooting can and does cause the death of fellow soilders. What would his faith tell him about causing the death of that soilder, he did not shoot him but his inaction would cause the death of another. People join the forces looking for a free ride, then when they are called to task want to say " wait a minute, this isn't what I signed up for!". Well, Yes it is.

 

[ayani]

I think they are fully obliged to shoot or to obey orders to shoot once in action.

so are you saying the orders of a person to kill trump one's understanding of religious convictions against killing?

 

[spacemonkey]

Here's the thing, this guy is a COMMISIONED officer, not just some grunt who wanted money for college. He made the decison to make a CAREER out of the military and now he has to face up to that decision. It is not easy to become an officer in the military, and this guy would have had MANY opertunities to rethink this path before ACCEPTING his commision.

 

[Booko]

ok. but wouldn't that get them in trouble with superiors? even if they did survive a shoot-out?

In practice, it got them dead. It didn't take long for the military to figure out what our religious limitations were, really.

And think of it in military terms -- if you're on patrol with some guys and one of them is absolutely not going to shoot the "enemy" that's NOT someone you want in your patrol.

It was in everyone's best interest to figure out how we could be drafted, serve our country, and not compromise our religious principles.

As for getting into trouble with the superiors, from our pov any trouble we got into with US superiors for following our religion pale in comparison to what the Iranian gov't has been doing since '79 and the mullas since before that.

what i'm saying is that i sympathize with those folks who get into the action of war and fighting and are like "oh my god! i had no idea! i can't do this!" and that they shouldn't be obliged to shoot or to obey orders to shoot / run people over with tanks / raid houses / beat people / whatever is being asked of them. this is basically what, it seems, Watada is facing as an issue. and possible punishment for his rejection of fighting.

One presumes Watada wasn't drafted? In which case, how much of a fool does one have to be not to realize that being in the armed services as a combatant means you might actually be sent into combat?

And how do you get to be a lieutenant and not realize this? I'm kinda baffled here.

If he'd had a change in his religious status or something, there are papers to file for that and you can get your status changed. You don't just say, "no sir, I ain't goin" and refuse to deploy. That's just a bit...bizarre.

 

[Booko]

I think they are fully obliged to shoot or to obey orders to shoot once in action. Them not shooting can and does cause the death of fellow soilders. What would his faith tell him about causing the death of that soilder, he did not shoot him but his inaction would cause the death of another. People join the forces looking for a free ride, then when they are called to task want to say " wait a minute, this isn't what I signed up for!". Well, Yes it is.

I was speaking of the case of a few Baha'is from YEARS ago, when you didn't join for a "free ride" but you got DRAFTED. This was before the military figured out how to deal with us. They figured it out...pronto. It's not like no one tried to explain it to them beforehand, but you know, it's a bureaucracy thing.

Initially, it seems they figured us for a bunch of Except we don't ask to be kept out of combat areas. Just that we not be required to shoot anyone. So make us medics, that's just fine.

 

[divinemission]

Freedom of religion protect in the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. The serious wrong here was the Military Law contradicts the Constitution.

The issue is this, government leaders, and military officials must act according to the Constitution at all cases, and that for cover the cases of people who do not know the laws. NOT ALL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND GOVERNMENT LAW!

Government leaders and military officers like guardians for soldiers, they have duties and responsibilities to make rules and to order others comply with rules for avoid hurt/kill all people.

All wars cause death and destroy structures. Therefore, all wars work against the Almighty on going creation of the earth and human lives on earth.

People can agreed and disagreed with government/military have the right to commands soldiers to the war zones - While the Almighty Eternal God's law of prohibits murder and destroys structures does not exempt any one!

[FONT=&quot]At the end “Do to other of what you want other do unto you.”[/FONT]

 

[MaddLlama]

Have you actually done any research on the case? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion, or Biblical opposition to murder. It does have everything to do with making a political statement.

 

[MaddLlama]

All wars cause death and destroy structures. Therefore, all wars work against the Almighty on going creation of the earth and human lives on earth.

Then, if it really was religious motivated (which I have found after actually reading some info on this instead of just listening to you which I should have done in the first place), then why join the army at all? If all wars are against godly principles you claim to follow, then wouldn't joining the army be really stupid?

Actually, now I'm kind of sad that you're using this mans political statement as a soapbox for your own benefit. What does god have to say about dishonesty?