Ukraine: Hedges, Mearsheimer, and of course OLIGARCHS !!!

[Revoltingest]

Are these really good faith questions?

Yes.
Will I get good faith answers?

I used duckduckgo and searched for "major military contractors". Not a lot of dots to connect here. Companies like Lockheed Martin, and General Dynamics come up. Is this really surprising to you?

And of course, companies like this have armies of lobbyists.

You named companies.
But you don't show any evidenced argument
that they direct leaders to wage war. Come
on, man....more than a conspiracy theory, eh.

 

[Link]

Up to a point. But the oligarchs have crossed that threshold and they are now firmly in "evil" territory. I think that some wealth is a necessary component of society. But it needs to be monitored and constrained.

I believe in Angels and demonic Devils both are from Jinn. I believe Angels are on side of Putin and not US and Nato.

Good is taping into sustenance from God's light, evil is from demonic energy. I believe west follows caprice and their morality is debauched, they can't think straight.

 

[Valjean]

I watched Putin and seen him speak. He is rich but doesn't care if he loses wealth. He's not doing this for money. He's doing this to defend his country.

From what, and what does "defend" mean?

 

[Link]

From what, and what does "defend" mean?

The video I posted and now posted in this thread, shows the factors as to why this a defensive move.

 

[Augustus]

It's ALL about rich people who are happy to destroy the world if they can amass bigger fortunes along the way.

What rational argument is there that Putin, who could enrich himself basically as much as he likes without war, is fighting a war to enrich himself? (this is assuming his goal is to be a rich as possible, which is very debatable)

 

[Valjean]

Today's Guardian:
Timidity, greed and sloth: why the west always loses to Putin

interesting.... Thoughts?

 

[Link]

Today's Guardian:
Timidity, greed and sloth: why the west always loses to Putin

interesting.... Thoughts?

You lose because you get outsmarted by plans of God. No other reason. Every time you plan, there is counter plans by God and Imam Mahdi (a) forces, and Imam Mahdi (a) forces are everywhere whether they declare their faith or not, per commands of Imam Mahdi (a). Call it the light hidden government of God.

 

[stvdv]

Yes.
Will I get good faith answers?

You named companies.
But you don't show any evidenced argument
that they direct leaders to wage war. Come
on, man....more than a conspiracy theory, eh.

Nothing wrong with a "good" conspiracy

 

[Revoltingest]

Nothing wrong with a "good" conspiracy

That's the thing...they're not even wrong.

 

[icehorse]

Yes.
Will I get good faith answers?

You named companies.
But you don't show any evidenced argument
that they direct leaders to wage war. Come
on, man....more than a conspiracy theory, eh.

@Revoltingest !

You might not have heard the news but there is LOT of information available on the internet. AND what's more, there are programs called "search engines" that will help you find the info you're looking for! It's really amazing.

But since you're new to all of this, I did a search for you:

"influence of military contractors" got me to this:

Capitalizing on conflict: How defense contractors and foreign nations lobby for arms sales

You're welcome !!

 

[icehorse]

What rational argument is there that Putin, who could enrich himself basically as much as he likes without war, is fighting a war to enrich himself? (this is assuming his goal is to be a rich as possible, which is very debatable)

Should I assume from your question that your thought is that none of Putin's oligarch cronies happen to be in the arms business?

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest !

You might not have heard the news but there is LOT of information available on the internet. AND what's more, there are programs called "search engines" that will help you find the info you're looking for! It's really amazing.

But since you're new to all of this, I did a search for you:

"influence of military contractors" got me to this:

Capitalizing on conflict: How defense contractors and foreign nations lobby for arms sales

You're welcome !!

I've seen a lot of information. But where you find
conspiracies, I see leaders representing voters.
Picking just one war, Afghanistan, it had support
from most of both Dems & Pubs. The voters
approved by re-electing Bush for starting it, &
Obama for continuing it.
There's no need to claim that contractors caused
the war, which is a conspiratorial supposition that's
not backed by any evidence of deals...just a claim
of influence. But influence for what? I've seen
lobbying for contracts. Which contractor has
lobbied whom to start & continue wars?

 

[icehorse]

The voters
approved by re-electing Bush for starting it, &
Obama for continuing it.

As Boss Tweed said: I don't care who's in charge of the voting, as long as I'm in charge of the nominating. In other words, the choices we're given as voters are typically "lessor of evils" choices. I think it's inaccurate to conclude that US voters were "for" Iraq or Afghan wars based on who was elected president.

There's no need to claim that contractors caused
the war, which is a conspiratorial supposition that's
not backed by any evidence of deals...just a claim
of influence. But influence for what? I've seen
lobbying for contracts. Which contractor has
lobbied whom to start & continue wars?

Ah, the innocence of youth. I think you ought to book some time with Occam.

On a more serious note: do you really think that the masters of war will make it easy for folks like us to see how they manipulate the world?

 

[Revoltingest]

As Boss Tweed said: I don't care who's in charge of the voting, as long as I'm in charge of the nominating. In other words, the choices we're given as voters are typically "lessor of evils" choices. I think it's inaccurate to conclude that US voters were "for" Iraq or Afghan wars based on who was elected president.

Simply quoting WM Tweed regarding local elections approaching
2 centuries ago isn't evidence for your conspiracy theory.
Dems & Pubs have fielded diverse candidates in their primaries.
But voters in their parties preferred the candidates whom you'd
say are selected by the oligarchs, or military contractors, or other.
We have a clear & demonstrable relationship between voters,
elected leaders, & policies. You have only a Boss Tweed quote
& claims of lobbying creating a conspiracy.

Ah, the innocence of youth. I think you ought to book some time with Occam.

Occam would approve of the simpler explanation
that voters drive policy, newbie. He'd have pared
away superfluous conspiracy theories.

 

[icehorse]

Simply quoting WM Tweed regarding local elections approaching
2 centuries ago isn't evidence for your conspiracy theory.
Dems & Pubs have fielded diverse candidates in their primaries.
But voters in their parties preferred the candidates whom you'd
say are selected by the oligarchs, or military contractors, or other.
We have a clear & demonstrable relationship between voters,
elected leaders, & policies. You have only a Boss Tweed quote
& claims of lobbying creating a conspiracy.

Occam would approve of the simpler explanation
that voters drive policy, newbie. He'd have pared
away superfluous conspiracy theories.

Ad hominem, always the sign of the end of civil discourse, ciao dude

 

[Revoltingest]

Ad hominem, always the sign of the end of civil discourse, ciao dude

 

[Mock Turtle]

I believe in Angels and demonic Devils both are from Jinn. I believe Angels are on side of Putin and not US and Nato.

Good is taping into sustenance from God's light, evil is from demonic energy. I believe west follows caprice and their morality is debauched, they can't think straight.

Just shows how out of touch with reality you are. Sorry, but it is the truth.

 

[Augustus]

Should I assume from your question that your thought is that none of Putin's oligarch cronies happen to be in the arms business?

No, I assume you are resorting to the standard conspiracy theory said about all wars ever and that rarely makes any sense beyond the purely superficial

Why do you think oligarchs need a war to make money from the arms business?

Russia is autocratic. It can just increase spending to whatever level it likes, and a lot of the money they make comes from siphoning off money from these defence contracts. So the state overpays, and the contractor under-provides.

Wasting money actually fighting a war means there is less to be spread around the oligarchs.

Generals profit by having 'ghost soldiers' who they claim wages for but don't exist, by not running training ops they are budgeted for, etc.

They don't need a war, and in fact, wars show up a lot of the corruption that has enabled people to get rich when militaries underperform compared to expectation as their equipment is not up to scratch, and training is poor, etc.

And this is even without the threat of sanctions that make oligarchs much worse off and limits their freedom to enjoy their vast wealth.

So, what are the rational reasons Putin et al. are getting richer from this war than they would be without it?

 

[stvdv]

That's the thing...they're not even wrong.

Exactly my point I was making

 

[Link]

Just shows how out of touch with reality you are. Sorry, but it is the truth.

Truth should come out of your vocabulary. It doesn't matter for you what it is.