UN rights body condemns Israel

[jewscout]

1) land wasn't stolen, it was, on the whole purchased legally. If someone has a problem w/ that, complain to the Turks, not the Jews.

2) the remaining land was gained in wars Israel never started, and were meant for the sole purpose of killing every jewish man, woman, and child. I dare anyone to show a single sign of mercy from the Arabs in the War of Independence in 1948. Had we lost it would have been the second act of genocide upon the jewish people in less than half a century.

3) We've offered peace for land but we're not fools. What we want more than anything is security, and the resulting rocket attacks since the pullout from Gush Katif has made the chance for such a similar pullout from the West Bank highly unlikely. And this blame falls on Hamas, not Israel.

4) the Arab world has, to date, not shown any more than a passing concern for the Palestinians, and their financial contributions show it. This could be because the political leadership, no matter whether it's Fatah or Hamas, are both extremely corrupt. It's like having the Mafia run your country and it's sad. What's even sadder is how the Arab world just doesn't seem to care or be able to do more than scream and shout and blame someone else for problems they could easily fix themselves. But then, it's always easier to do that, isn't it?

 

[TashaN]

Whoa whoa whoa! Are you trying to justify the rockets flying into Israeli civilians here?

You don't know what you are talking about.

Israel.

The country "government", not the people.

excellent point Paul
where are the convoys of medical supplies etc waiting at the borders from the Arab states that Israel refuses to let in? now that would be a coup for the Arabs the western media would tear Israel to pieces over it. guns and rockets seem to find their way in but not food or medical supplies so desperately needed, the Arab league are meeting right now, It would be easy! or even better send ships lots of them all full of aid have them stuck their waiting for the Israelis to let them unload

they could name one EXODUS

The arabs no longer can send weapons, so the jews are selling it now to the palestinians.

 

[TashaN]

This insistance that the lands are "stolen" is absurd. A very large chuck of Israel was bought and paid for by Jews prior to the formation of Israel. The rest of the areas were either granted by the League of Nations after the war or "won" outright in conflicts with her "peace loving" Arab neighbors. Isreal even returned a rather large, worthless, chunk of land back to Egypt after one of their cross country engagements, so what is the problem? The simple reality is the victor in a given battle, as surely Muslims MUST understand, decides the fate of those in the captured areas. Whining and pleading about these social realities is actually somewhat moot. If you could enlighten me as to where my facts are wrong, I'd love to hear it.

The problem is that i don't see reasoning when muslims *win* some lands, and you will start whining about it and calling us barbarian who hates "peace".

Aside from this, as Muslims know fully well, a Jewish kingdom existed long before anyone had ever heard of Islam and her esteemed "messenger".

So?

I will not wish the same on you, my friend. Is that part of the good old Muslim sense of humanity at play here? That others should suffer because they dare to think differently from "learned" Muslims?

I apologize for what i have said earlier. I hope you will accept my apology for it.

But since you brought it up, Abu, you are a Saudi. What could you possibly know of the pain and suffering of Palestinians? Speak honestly, for I am all ears. It is unlikely that you have ever experienced anything like it. Right now, you are wealthy enough to study in KL, something well beyond the means of most and you assume you know the "on the ground" feeling of what Palestinians are going through. Please. Don't play me for a fool. Other than ranting on a relatively meaningless backwater Internet forum, what are YOU actually doing about the plight of Palestinians. Are YOU doing anything at all?

I don't know why i was shocked when you said all this about me, but i just couldn't answer. I just didn't expect you to say all this about me. I would have acted normally if someone else than you said such a thing. Anyway, just so you know. I'm not a Saudi as you think though i was born and raised there. I'm Eritrean, from a poor country iin the east of africa which is struggling to survive until now. We got our independence only in 1993. My mother flee from war when she was pregnant with her first child "my elder brother" and travelled all the way by a camel until reached to a neighbour country, then got the chance to live in saudi arabia, near Mekkah. Many of my relative has died on that war for independance and we still don't know until now of some of them, either they are dead or alive. I just don't like to talk about this, that;s why you were under the impression that i'm saudian while i mentioned so many times that i'm not one. I'm not rich, and i study in KL because an organization has sponsered me, while my brothers still help me a little bit too. And more than that i WORK, i don't watch tv and i only come here using FREE internet usage in our library. I just didn't want to talk about all this crap and i just didn't except you to say these things about me. I feel so disappointed, and only now i could return and answer. I just felt sick the first time i saw this post of yours and i didn't come back to this thread till just now.

It rather sounds like you are admitting that only some crazy people would thank Muslims for all their brutality over the centuries. Is that about right?

No.

Oddly, that is NOT the impression I get from your run of the mill Muslim, nor is it the impression I get from the run of the mill Muslim Internet site. You can hardly be described as bossom buddies. Your own scriptures villify Jews and so by default that villification is part of the Muslim mindset. Spare me the denial. It is quite ok to not like people.

I have no reason to hate jews, and you are talking nonesense.

Specifically Palestinians and Jews. Both are indiginous to the area, so what, pray tell, is the problem?

Now it's only for Jews. It's being said it's a Jewish state and they would be more than happy to kick the palestinians anywhere else from their own land. Now, only Jews from all around the world are admitted to the land and getting the israeli nationality, and ironically, those who have been kicked from their own land "palestinians" are not allowed to go back.

Would you rather that Adolf Hitler had won WW2? I am rather sure he would have treated Muslims with as much love and respect that he showed the Jews.

Irrelevant.

Dear Abu, you have not actually thought this through very much, have you. For starters, I will go by the assumption that you actually mean "borders" as, factually speaking, Palestinians do not own any land that could be sub-letted to "boarders". It is an amusing faux pas, nontheless. Of all the places to make a "Freudian slip", lol.

Now, listen up, you can thank me for the advise later, as I am about to give you a lesson in the psychology of geopolitical relationships.

1. By doing nothing and claiming nothing can be done simply reinforces the doom the Palestinians have in their future. They are cried for, hands are wrung, fists are shaken, but still, they are left to fend for themselves.

2. The world, at large, notices that Muslim nations are NOT being especially helpful in finding a solution simply because they insist on somewhat unrealisitic goals. Muslim nations are quite inflexible in the attitudes towards Israel and are in fact looked on as being hostile to Israel. Given that Israel owes its permanence, originally at least, to the "Western allies", hostility towards Israel is perceived as being hostility towards those same "Western allies".

3. The fortunes gained by Middle eastern countries are due to the infusion of mind-bogglingly large sums of cash from "Western" coffers. The life you and other rich Arab nations is paid for largely by "non-Muslim" (infidel) dollars. Without our enormous wealth you would still be a quaint folk wandering about the deserts and we probably would not hear very much about Islam or care in the slightest about Muslim sentiments on any topic. Muslims may very well conclude that this vast infusion of wealth is the "will of Allah" but in reality, it is because of the needs of Western technology. The "will of Allah" seems to apply to Muslims only when things are going good and when they are going badly, such as in the Middle east for the last decades it is somehow Western imperialism, oppression and somehow NOT the "will of Allah".

4. Back to point one, and here is the advice... If Muslims nations TRIED to physically offer aid to Palestinians on HUMANITARIAN grounds, politically speaking, Israel would look VERY bad in turning that much needed aid away. Are you getting what I am saying? If this happened once or twice, the world would not pay attention! After a few years of Israel consistently turning away medical aid, food aid and all manner of sundries destined or earmarked for the Palestinians, the world WOULD begin to notice and they would begin to judge Israel for being so callous.

We would, out of simple human compassion, begin to recognize the unflagging efforts of Muslim nations to help this sorely oppressed Palestinians. Given enough time, world opinion would force Israel into a corner. If you think I am kidding, you might want to actually try to do this and prove me wrong.

Granted this amounts to putting your money where your mouth is, but I know human nature very well, Abu and you have my utmost assurance that this PEACEFUL, non-military effort would bring your imagined foe to their collective knees within a generation -- if not sooner. But... you are not willing to do this, I'd wager.

Have you ever heard the expression, "Kill them with kindness"?

Thank you.

 

[TashaN]

that's funny i've never denied that settlements existed in the West Bank nor have i ever expressed support for or against their existance so i don't see how i am or am not admitting anything new.

Thank you again.

lets see...the Rambam and his family along w/ many other jews were forced from their homes in Spain by Muslims, the Yemenite jews have for centuries be expelled over and over again from their homes and by the beginning of the 20th century most jews in the Arab world were living in the equivialent of Ghettos, not to mention the murderous riots which followed the resounding defeat of the Arab armies in 1948 which cost the lives of hundreds of Sefardi jews living in the Arab world causing some 600,000 to flee into refugee camps in the newly formed State of Israel. There are a number of instances in which the jews were persecuted by the Muslim world, tho not in the frequency and severity of those living in Christian Europe. I've admitted it was better but don't give me this ridiculous propoganda that the muslim world has made itself believe so that they can garnish sympathy from the rest of the world. If you were really that noble you would use the BILLIONS in oil money to help the Palestinians instead of making our weak and fragile economy deal with the problem the arab world started.

lol, don't tell me pleaase that you, too, think i'm saudian. My God! :cover:

Anyway, you have to know well that i didn't claim that everything was alright 100% because even muslims themselves fought each other, how about with others. I'm just telling you that there is nothing in our dictionary which states that we have to hate jews, period.

but what i was talking specifically about was Hamas, whose charter calls all Jews around the world the great enemy of Islam and the Muslim people, something which has been posted on this forum a number of times, and not just by yours truely.

If that was mentioned then i strongly condemn it.

i would say the same thing to you. It's the same stuff over and over again. You talk about how wonderful life was for jews under muslim rule, but the fact of the matter is it wasn't all peaches and cream. And this little refugee problem wouldn't have been a problem if the armies of the Arab world hadn't attempted mass genocide.

Excuse me? what genocide?

And this is why arguments like this drive me crazy because it becomes nothing more than an exercise in "Persecution Olympics".

Perhaps, getting back to the OP, the UN should spend more time dealing w/ the MILLIONS dying of persecution, genocide and starvation who have no way of helping themselves instead of the Palestinians who recieve Billions of dollars in International aid yet for some reason can't get the mail delivered. And only a blind ignorant fool who gives themselves over completely to propaganda would lay the blame at the doorstep of Israel alone without taking a good long hard look in the mirror.

I'm not saying that Israel is the sole reason for the misrable life of the palestinians, but all what i was trying to say that Israel is playing the major part in here, and i hate it when people deny that.

 

[TashaN]

1) land wasn't stolen, it was, on the whole purchased legally. If someone has a problem w/ that, complain to the Turks, not the Jews.

False. They bought only few and they claim they bought it allll. If they really bought that land, no body would have complained, and no body would have been killed for fighting for it.

2) the remaining land was gained in wars Israel never started, and were meant for the sole purpose of killing every jewish man, woman, and child. I dare anyone to show a single sign of mercy from the Arabs in the War of Independence in 1948. Had we lost it would have been the second act of genocide upon the jewish people in less than half a century.

Stupid and unreasonable claim.

3) We've offered peace for land but we're not fools. What we want more than anything is security, and the resulting rocket attacks since the pullout from Gush Katif has made the chance for such a similar pullout from the West Bank highly unlikely. And this blame falls on Hamas, not Israel.

Hamas offered peace, but Israel refused it claming it was a lie, trap or something. So, swallow up this claim in particular.

4) the Arab world has, to date, not shown any more than a passing concern for the Palestinians, and their financial contributions show it. This could be because the political leadership, no matter whether it's Fatah or Hamas, are both extremely corrupt. It's like having the Mafia run your country and it's sad. What's even sadder is how the Arab world just doesn't seem to care or be able to do more than scream and shout and blame someone else for problems they could easily fix themselves. But then, it's always easier to do that, isn't it?

They can't fix it because if anyone tried to do a thing, the US will bombard the whole area to show her support for Israel.

 

[Yerda]

4) the Arab world has, to date, not shown any more than a passing concern for the Palestinians, and their financial contributions show it. This could be because the political leadership, no matter whether it's Fatah or Hamas, are both extremely corrupt. It's like having the Mafia run your country and it's sad. What's even sadder is how the Arab world just doesn't seem to care or be able to do more than scream and shout and blame someone else for problems they could easily fix themselves. But then, it's always easier to do that, isn't it?

What concern is that?

Whether Arabs care for or kill Burmese, Chinese, or Sudanese is never mentioned when discussion the oppression and subjection to humiliation they face. Why is it important when we talk of Palestinians. The point is that they are being oppressed, humiliated, starved, and murdered.

 

[Yerda]

The country "government", not the people.

Should Israeli Jews be forbidden from declaring a government in their name?

 

[TashaN]

Should Israeli Jews be forbidden from declaring a government in their name?

No. They should either give rights to both, jews and palestinians to go and live there, or they should forbid both. The issue today and since ever was that Israel is granting entry and automatic citizenship to NEW Jews who were born outside Israel. On the other hand, they are forbidding those palestinians who were expelled in the past to come back to their own land, and their lame excuse is that, they don't want the arabs to outnumber the jews there. That's why, there should be either a two state solution or no Israel. That's my opinion.

 

[Yerda]

No. They should either give rights to both, jews and palestinians to go and live there, or they should forbid both. The issue today and since ever was that Israel is granting entry and automatic citizenship to NEW Jews who were born outside Israel. On the other hand, they are forbidding those palestinians who were expelled in the past to come back to their own land, and their lame excuse is that, they don't want the arabs to outnumber the jews there.

I see.

That's why, there should be either a two state solution or no Israel. That's my opinion.

Fair enough.

How would you reconcile the refugee desire to return with the two state solution?

 

[TashaN]

I see.

Fair enough.

How would you reconcile the refugee desire to return with the two state solution?

If there are two EQUAL states then Israel will have no power over who can get in to the Palestinian side and who doesn't.

 

[Yerda]

If there are two EQUAL states then Israel will have no power over who can get in to the Palestinian side and who doesn't.

Yes, but aren't there many who wish to return to lands in the Israeli state? That would present a problem, no?

 

[TashaN]

Yes, but aren't there many who wish to return to lands in the Israeli state? That would present a problem, no?

This is like saying, if i gave a poor man food and some clothes, how do i make sure that he won't ask for a car!

Those people just want to return to their homes or wherever place they can smell from the soil of their home land.

 

[NoahideHiker]

Wasn't Lybia the chairman of this counsil? Yeah, I can't imagine they'd go after Israel with any kind of bias.

 

[Yerda]

Wasn't Lybia the chairman of this counsil? Yeah, I can't imagine they'd go after Israel with any kind of bias.

Let's add the UN Human Rights council to the long list of biased human rights organizations, which curiously includes the Israeli ones.