Unconditional Love

[Tumah]

I would rather live a single day as a Lion rather than a hundred years as a Sheep.

[Better to] be the tail of a lion and don't be the head of a fox. (Avoth 4:15)

For the terms and conditions of God's love we have the commandments - 660 of them I believe.

613. Not you though. You only have 7. And not for the condition of G-d's love, for the condition of your payment.

 

[ChristineES]

Maybe all of us except for psychopaths. :/ Loving unconditionally is one of the hardest things to do.

We just have to do the best we can.

 

[JayJayDee]

And how did he eradicate those beliefs other than eradicating the people themselves? Let genocide in the name of your god begin! "Jihad! Holy War! Die infidels and your false beliefs with you!"

Windwalker, you have to ignore the whole of scripture to make a statement like that.

Just because some wish to wantonly take life in the name of God, doesn't mean that God is with them or supports their actions. In fact any violence perpetrated by humans in the name of God today is in direct violation to the teachings of the Christ. He did not advocate violence of any kind, for any reason.

As the Creator, Jehovah has always had jurisdiction over life and death. His actions in the OT are proof that he did not turn a blind eye to wickedness. Sometimes it was so bad that he stepped in to eliminate the offence of the people practicing what he abhorred. But he also demonstrated mercy when repentance was shown as in the case of Jonah and Nineveh.

It scares me people think like this, that they imagine God this way, that they view their fellow man as evil doers that need to be eradicated in order for your views to reign supreme. Quite disturbing indeed.

And it astounds me that people can turn God's love into an excuse to abuse their right to life. God has righteous standards laid out in the scriptures, so when we violate God's laws, we can expect retribution....otherwise God's justice is inept. Yet it is one of his cardinal qualities.

Except for the fact it says "God is Love". There are no conditions set there. Love is the being of God.

God's love is tempered by his other qualities. Justice for one....wisdom for another and also the appropriate use of his infinite power. God is Love but it isn't all he is. Justice demands that the punishment fits the crime. Since God is both judge and executioner, who are we to judge him?

Did your parents love you conditionally? Only if you pleased them? If so, that must have been quite hurtful on the deepest of levels that you needed to earn love. To me, a love like that is not love at all. Again, that's not love.

Is it loving to allow your children to go on a destructive course without you intervening? What if they become a danger to others and you saw your child about to shoot randomly into a crowd of people, would you blame the police if they took the life of your child before he took the lives of others? Did the police have authority to do that? Who gave them that authority? God is the ultimate authority and no one violates his laws and gets away with it.

But a couple sentences ago you said it was having incorrect "belief systems"? But what if these belief systems create good for our fellow man? Wipe it out anyway because it's not "true doctrine"?

God never once said he was going to save "good" people. He said it was "obedient" ones that he would gain salvation. That obedience had to come as a result of genuine love for God, not out of fear or because one performed certain rituals. Humanitarians are good people too, but many of them are atheists. Where does that leave them?

He gave his own people the choice between obedience and life or disobedience and death....then he told them to choose life. We all have that choice. We all follow our belief system because we choose to.

Such views of God grieve the Heart and keep one from God, from Love. How can you love as God Is, and desire others eradicated? That is not Love.

The love God teaches demonstrates no love of lies or falsehood...especially religious falsehood. If belief systems do not teach the truth, then they are in violation of his express commands. One does not disobey the God of the Bible or treat him as if he were shackled by human sentiment. His justice is perfect and it warrants mercy only when such is deserved in God's estimations....not ours.

 

[Whiterain]

It's not something you could apply in passive conversation, unconditional love.

For me, I think, to love unconditionally would also mean I understand it's inequalities, even the violent.

I'll use a dog for instance. I had a hybrid shepard grey wolf my sister gave me.

I love her, Tasha, unconditionally. But she was wild with instincts and attacked everyone but me, I was the only one that could handle her besides my sister.

She attacked my Mother and all of my friends. I had her on a chain outback and she almost strangled to death. I found her in the nick of time on a whim to go check on her, she was suffocating and strangled wrapped in the chain. Ten minutes later she would have been dead. It was a spiritual moment.

She constantly, magically, got off the chain as well. She constantly got off the chain and would return seemingly ravaged by the wilderness.

I later turned her loose into deep woods believing it was best for her, I think she appreciated it, eternal freedom.

My sister never forgave me.

Her eyes seemed to glow in the dark.

 

[Windwalker]

Windwalker, you have to ignore the whole of scripture to make a statement like that.

You have to ignore the entire book of Joshua to not conclude that. They should rename that book the Book of Genocide. The funny thing about it is that it has been shown now that the ancient Israelites were themselves Canaanites. But that's a whole other discussion.

Just because some wish to wantonly take life in the name of God, doesn't mean that God is with them or supports their actions. In fact any violence perpetrated by humans in the name of God today is in direct violation to the teachings of the Christ. He did not advocate violence of any kind, for any reason.

So you are saying we should let the NT take precedence over the OT. In which case, ordering genocide in the name of God should be reviled. I agree. Let's call the book of Joshua a fiction and be done with this bad theology that teaches God wants to "eradicating false belief", which you said that started this discussion between us. I'm all for the path of love, not this nonsense that says God is interested in true beliefs and will destroy those who don't have them. That's just gross and a violation of love. It's not justice at all. It's a contradiction.

As the Creator, Jehovah has always had jurisdiction over life and death. His actions in the OT are proof that he did not turn a blind eye to wickedness. Sometimes it was so bad that he stepped in to eliminate the offence of the people practicing what he abhorred. But he also demonstrated mercy when repentance was shown as in the case of Jonah and Nineveh.

This is all a reinterpretation to say it was "so bad" he had to do something. That's just trying to force fit what is clearly a primitive story about a tribal people wishing to exterminate other tribes whom they did not see as humans. Sort of like the way the Nazi's saw Jews as subhumans. This is just what tribal people think. The story is about that, not about the God of Love you see in the NT. This "they were so bad God had to do something", is nonsense. It's a rationalization to make a theology others came up with fit together. It only works if you deny your own heart.

And it astounds me that people can turn God's love into an excuse to abuse their right to life. God has righteous standards laid out in the scriptures, so when we violate God's laws, we can expect retribution....otherwise God's justice is inept. Yet it is one of his cardinal qualities.

My God, did your parents exact "retribution" upon you for not living up to their standards? I don't know about you, but that's not a loving parent, not a wise parent, not a compassionate parent, not a teaching parent, and most certainly not a parent of unconditional love. Fortunately, my parents were unconditionally loving of me, while expecting me to grow and become responsible. Never once did they exact "retribution" upon me. Never once did they threaten me with harm. I became a good person because the path of love is better than the path of fear of retribution. Perhaps this is why I've never related to God looking a thing like the God you're teaching here. Because God to me is Love, not one who destroys you for fumbling and stumbling as you find your way to Him.

I sincerely think our image of God comes back to our home lives. How we interpret the scriptures will be conditioned by that.

God's love is tempered by his other qualities.

Who said Love is a quality of God? No, John said "God is Love". He doesn't say "has" love. He says "IS" love. Very different. The very Being of God IS Love. It is His essence, not an attribute.

Justice for one....wisdom for another and also the appropriate use of his infinite power. God is Love but it isn't all he is. Justice demands that the punishment fits the crime. Since God is both judge and executioner, who are we to judge him?

Is God social order? That's very strange. Have you ever stopped to think that the people who wrote the OT simply projected their own laws on an external authority in order to give them teeth to enforce them? Say it is a law of God, means they have absolute authority over you. And you know the funny thing is, Jesus comes along and sort of rips the teeth out of that. "You have heard it said, but I say..." He taught a better way, the way of love and mercy, not of "justice and vengeance".

Is it loving to allow your children to go on a destructive course without you intervening?

Sometimes to let a child gain wisdom and grow you have to let them make mistakes. That's what unconditional love allows sometimes, knowing that good will prevail in the end.

What if they become a danger to others and you saw your child about to shoot randomly into a crowd of people, would you blame the police if they took the life of your child before he took the lives of others?

We're not talking things on this level. We're talking "false beliefs", not homicidal behaviors. Of course to protect the lives of others they need to be removed in whatever way is necessary. But if we take your wild analogy here and apply it to "false beliefs", as you said at the outset, you are damned right I would blame the police for shooting him because he taught ideas that were not the norm! Hell yes, I would blame them and I would seek they be removed from positions of power over others!

Did the police have authority to do that? Who gave them that authority? God is the ultimate authority and no one violates his laws and gets away with it.

This is some borderline scary stuff here when you apply it to "false beliefs". I cry foul to the nth degree here. Who the hell is it determining a 'false belief'??? You? Why not me? I read the same Bible as you, but I come to very different conclusions than you do. It's the same words, but two different set of eyes doing the interpreting.

The problem with fundamentalists is they remove themselves from all responsibility in how they interpret the Bible. They say they "aren't" interpreting the Bible! They read words on the page and somehow magically thinking because they understand it a certain way, all others must somehow be wrong. This is a mental blind spot for them. It's a limited, and dangerous mode of thinking that does not look at themselves as the interpreter. And so then why they believe their ideas are "God's Word" (which it is not, anymore than anyone else's interpretation is), they feel justified in judging and condemning everyone else, or even exterminating them if they felt justified to be "God's police force" in the world. Very scary indeed.

God never once said he was going to save "good" people. He said it was "obedient" ones that he would gain salvation. That obedience had to come as a result of genuine love for God, not out of fear or because one performed certain rituals. Humanitarians are good people too, but many of them are atheists. Where does that leave them?

More Christian than Christians? "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice". If someone, regardless of their theology, including atheists, show love in their hearts to another and in fact act as Christ, even while rejecting the mythologies as literal historical facts, they will go to heaven before you if you don't, even while being perfectly religious the whole time. "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." These were the "atheists" of the day.

Go ahead, rest in your belief you are saved by correct beliefs. God doesn't care about your beliefs.

He gave his own people the choice between obedience and life or disobedience and death....then he told them to choose life. We all have that choice. We all follow our belief system because we choose to.

I for one do not follow a belief system. I follow Love. I don't think Christ said follow a belief system. He said "follow me", which is the Way of Love. Follow Love. "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." I sincerely belief atheists are closer to God than most "true believers". Boy, that sort of lays waste all these "Bible studies" one looks to bring them a sense of belief they are saved. And well it should. That's why Jesus said to the religious of his day, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

The love God teaches demonstrates no love of lies or falsehood...especially religious falsehood.

"Especially religious falsehood"? Well, yes... when religion teaches you are saved by correct beliefs, they do a grave disservice to human beings. They prevent them from knowing God from within, even if they have different ideas or interpretations of God. Those ideas, those theologies are so very incidental and relative. If it helps them to be loving and do love in the world, then it's true. They are in fact "doing God's will", in their very person. They are in fact "obeying God", by obeying Love.

It is better to reject religion and end up serving God as a result in actions, if not in name, than it is to stay in religion and self-deceptively serve yourself.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Be around the person whose opinions make you want to tear out your hair. Practice opening your heart to them and finding compassion for them instead.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

I will not only love you if you behave in a way I think you should or believe in those things I believe in

 

[JayJayDee]

You have to ignore the entire book of Joshua to not conclude that. They should rename that book the Book of Genocide. The funny thing about it is that it has been shown now that the ancient Israelites were themselves Canaanites. But that's a whole other discussion.

By all means open a thread and we can discuss it. How could the Israelites be Canaanites? Israel were the direct descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their lineage was preserved because it was to be part of the Messiah's credentials. According to archeologists, the Canaanites were disgusting people with disgusting practices....just as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were. Genocide? No, just plain incorrigible. God dealt with them as he did with the people of Noah's day. Since Christ and his apostles used those as examples of things to come, we had better sit up and take notice. (Matt 24:36-39; 2 Pet 2:5-13)

So you are saying we should let the NT take precedence over the OT. In which case, ordering genocide in the name of God should be reviled. I agree. Let's call the book of Joshua a fiction and be done with this bad theology that teaches God wants to "eradicating false belief", which you said that started this discussion between us. I'm all for the path of love, not this nonsense that says God is interested in true beliefs and will destroy those who don't have them. That's just gross and a violation of love. It's not justice at all. It's a contradiction.

There is no contradiction in the administration of Jehovah's justice. It is perfect....but we are not. That is why he gave his laws to his people. Only Israel was bound by them, but it didn't stop God from punishing the incorrigibly wicked before those laws were given, did it? Using Israel to evict the Canaanites was his prerogative. It was how he demonstrated to the worshippers of false gods the reality of his power. Israel had no victory that was not attributed to their God.

This is all a reinterpretation to say it was "so bad" he had to do something. That's just trying to force fit what is clearly a primitive story about a tribal people wishing to exterminate other tribes whom they did not see as humans. Sort of like the way the Nazi's saw Jews as subhumans. This is just what tribal people think. The story is about that, not about the God of Love you see in the NT. This "they were so bad God had to do something", is nonsense. It's a rationalization to make a theology others came up with fit together. It only works if you deny your own heart.

So you see the flood as a myth then? Noah was not a real person and the wickedness of humanity and their response to Noah's warning is just a story? Jesus spoke about him and said that these last days would see a similar degeneration into wickedness and a similar response to the warning like Noah gave, but the people were bent on doing their own thing. (Matt 24:37-39; 24:14)

My God, did your parents exact "retribution" upon you for not living up to their standards? I don't know about you, but that's not a loving parent, not a wise parent, not a compassionate parent, not a teaching parent, and most certainly not a parent of unconditional love.

My parents loved me enough to discipline me. It was painful sometimes but I learned to be obedient and to comply with the rules of the household. In those days, that kind of discipline was accepted as the "norm".

When I married and left home, I applied the same discipline to my own children....they were loved and never felt that their discipline was an injustice. Times have changed.....these days it is not legal to discipline a child that way, but discipline can still be administered lovingly. It still hurts, but in a different way. (Prov 22:6; 29:15)

Fortunately, my parents were unconditionally loving of me, while expecting me to grow and become responsible. Never once did they exact "retribution" upon me. Never once did they threaten me with harm. I became a good person because the path of love is better than the path of fear of retribution. Perhaps this is why I've never related to God looking a thing like the God you're teaching here. Because God to me is Love, not one who destroys you for fumbling and stumbling as you find your way to Him.

Unfortunately, not everyone responds to the kind of discipline that worked on you. Every child is different. Some respond to a word or a facial expression of disapproval. Others require a stronger approach and still others are willful, no matter what discipline is administered. You cannot have a blanket..."one size fits all" approach.

I sincerely think our image of God comes back to our home lives. How we interpret the scriptures will be conditioned by that.

I think you are a living example of that. But in reading the Bible, we cannot pick and choose the parts that make God into the person we want to worship. A balanced approach is to ask why he did what he did and seek the answer, rather than ignoring the parts of the Bible that we may find distasteful. All of scripture tells us something about God's personality.

Who said Love is a quality of God? No, John said "God is Love". He doesn't say "has" love. He says "IS" love. Very different. The very Being of God IS Love. It is His essence, not an attribute.

I never said otherwise. I said his love is tempered by his other qualities. Justice demand action. Wisdom dictates the the penalty and the correct administration of power carries it out. All of God's attributes are in perfect balance.

Is God social order? That's very strange. Have you ever stopped to think that the people who wrote the OT simply projected their own laws on an external authority in order to give them teeth to enforce them? Say it is a law of God, means they have absolute authority over you. And you know the funny thing is, Jesus comes along and sort of rips the teeth out of that. "You have heard it said, but I say..." He taught a better way, the way of love and mercy, not of "justice and vengeance".

Anyone can selectively quote scripture to promote their own view.
When Jesus said to the crowds in his Sermon on the Mount "you have heard it said", he was speaking about the Pharisees' interpretation of the law......when he told them "but I say to you" he was correcting that wrong interpretation. There is no way that Jesus would dismantle the laws of his God. He said he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. (Matt 5:17, 18)

Sometimes to let a child gain wisdom and grow you have to let them make mistakes. That's what unconditional love allows sometimes, knowing that good will prevail in the end.

I agree, but when a child knows better, we expect more of him. Making mistakes for learning is one thing but making monumental mistakes that can have devastating consequences for themselves and others is a whole different kettle of fish. Wayward teens do not have the maturity to see beyond the action. One stupid decision and they could pay for it for the rest of their lives. Those are not the kinds of mistakes you allow if you can avoid it.

We're not talking things on this level. We're talking "false beliefs", not homicidal behaviors. Of course to protect the lives of others they need to be removed in whatever way is necessary. But if we take your wild analogy here and apply it to "false beliefs", as you said at the outset, you are damned right I would blame the police for shooting him because he taught ideas that were not the norm! Hell yes, I would blame them and I would seek they be removed from positions of power over others!

Where do you think false religious beliefs come from? According to the Jesus, the ruler of this world is satan the devil. The apostles also speak much about this enemy of ours. (1 John 5:19) If this enemy of God is promoting beliefs that dishonor God and teach falsehoods about him, why would God turn a blind eye to that? Why would God tell his people to be careful about NOT adopting the ways of the Canaanites, if they were in fact Canaanites themselves? (Deut 18:9-12)

Who the hell is it determining a 'false belief'??? You? Why not me? I read the same Bible as you, but I come to very different conclusions than you do. It's the same words, but two different set of eyes doing the interpreting.

By your own admission, you are a loner, not attached to any religion. Does that put you in a better position to understand and interpret scripture? When were God's people ever a man/woman band? They have always been a collective, presided over by those appointed to lead them. Since the devil sets up rival systems of worship, it is up to us to choose our teachers very carefully. Those who only wish teach themselves have a fool for an educator.

The problem with fundamentalists is they remove themselves from all responsibility in how they interpret the Bible. They say they "aren't" interpreting the Bible! They read words on the page and somehow magically thinking because they understand it a certain way, all others must somehow be wrong. This is a mental blind spot for them.

This may be true for fundamentalists, but I am not one of them.

The blind spots are not reserved for fundies anyway. Even those who choose to go it alone have their own blind spots.

It's a limited, and dangerous mode of thinking that does not look at themselves as the interpreter. And so then why they believe their ideas are "God's Word" (which it is not, anymore than anyone else's interpretation is), they feel justified in judging and condemning everyone else, or even exterminating them if they felt justified to be "God's police force" in the world. Very scary indeed.

Just as Jesus offered his truth to people, so do we. He didn't force himself on anyone but he preached one truth and no deviation was tolerated. The apostles carefully recorded all that we read in the NT so that we can see clearly what Jesus taught. Comparing what Jesus taught with what Christendom teaches will reveal a complete defection. Jesus and the apostles foretold it, so it should come as no surprise. (Matt 13:24-30, 36-43)

More Christian than Christians? "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice". If someone, regardless of their theology, including atheists, show love in their hearts to another and in fact act as Christ, even while rejecting the mythologies as literal historical facts, they will go to heaven before you if you don't, even while being perfectly religious the whole time. "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." These were the "atheists" of the day.

God gives everyone an opportunity to get to know him. Those who choose not to listen or those who choose not to respond to the Christian message for whatever reason, leave themselves out of contention for salvation. (1 Thess 1:6-9)
Loving God and obedience to his laws is a requirement for life.....this is something Jesus stressed. Love for God AND for our fellow man is required, not just one OR the other.

Go ahead, rest in your belief you are saved by correct beliefs. God doesn't care about your beliefs.

That is why he gave Israel hundreds of laws....because he didn't care what they believed? Seriously?

I for one do not follow a belief system. I follow Love. I don't think Christ said follow a belief system. He said "follow me", which is the Way of Love. Follow Love. "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." I sincerely belief atheists are closer to God than most "true believers".

Selective use of the text again.

Jesus was a Jew who was under law and followed it scrupulously. He was raised by devout Jewish parents who did not neglect his spiritual education. He said all of the above in contrast to how the Pharisees had treated the people. Why do you think he was sent exclusively to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"?
How did the sheep get lost in the first place? Poor and neglectful shepherds. Following Jesus meant coming out from under religious oppression.

Boy, that sort of lays waste all these "Bible studies" one looks to bring them a sense of belief they are saved. And well it should. That's why Jesus said to the religious of his day, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

You should recognise Jesus frequent use of hyperbole. He was not sanctioning prostitution or extortion.

"Especially religious falsehood"? Well, yes... when religion teaches you are saved by correct beliefs, they do a grave disservice to human beings. They prevent them from knowing God from within, even if they have different ideas or interpretations of God. Those ideas, those theologies are so very incidental and relative. If it helps them to be loving and do love in the world, then it's true. They are in fact "doing God's will", in their very person. They are in fact "obeying God", by obeying Love.

But if they are not in all consciousness loving God as the motive for what they do, then it is wasted. You can't keep half a command. None of God's faithful servants ever kept half a command. What if Noah had? What if Jesus had?
God does not accept half hearted worship.....it's all or nothing. Sorry. (Rev 3:15, 16)

It is better to reject religion and end up serving God as a result in actions, if not in name, than it is to stay in religion and self-deceptively serve yourself.

Many who profess Christianity are in for disappointment. (Matt 7:21-23) So you are right, we must reject religion that is false to the Bible's teachings. It isn't about what you call yourself....and it isn't what the beliefs or rituals you "perform" that matters to God. He is looking for the motivation....and if it isn't motivated by genuine love for him, he is not one bit interested in granting them continued life. They have no place in his kingdom.

He has a purpose for our being and the lesson is "obey and live...disobey and die". It couldn't be more plain than that.
If we cannot accept that simple directive, then God has no use for us on his future plans.

This is what God held out to man from the beginning and here we are thousands of years from Eden and what have we learned? We are still abusing our free will and we still want to do things "our" way....we still want to believe what "we" want to believe. No one seems to care what God wants...only what "they" want.

We will all see soon enough where our choices in life have taken us. We will all "reap what we have sown".... We can count on it.

 

[roger1440]

A psychopath may be the antithesis of unconditional love. Charles Manson comes to mind. I have watched many interviews featuring him. I lean towards no. Some people are not capable of unconditional love.

 

[Windwalker]

By all means open a thread and we can discuss it. How could the Israelites be Canaanites? Israel were the direct descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their lineage was preserved because it was to be part of the Messiah's credentials. According to archeologists, the Canaanites were disgusting people with disgusting practices....just as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were. Genocide? No, just plain incorrigible. God dealt with them as he did with the people of Noah's day. Since Christ and his apostles used those as examples of things to come, we had better sit up and take notice. (Matt 24:36-39; 2 Pet 2:5-13)

I don't really want to spend my time arguing the findings of modern, actual, archaeologists against Bible student amature archeologists. So if you are interested in what credible archeologists have to say on this topic I recommend reading William Dever's, Who Were the Early Israelites, for starters.

There is no contradiction in the administration of Jehovah's justice. It is perfect....but we are not. That is why he gave his laws to his people. Only Israel was bound by them, but it didn't stop God from punishing the incorrigibly wicked before those laws were given, did it? Using Israel to evict the Canaanites was his prerogative. It was how he demonstrated to the worshippers of false gods the reality of his power. Israel had no victory that was not attributed to their God.

This is all just rationalizations that don't hold up to examination. Demonstrating his power to whom? To those he destroyed, or to his fan club back home? That sort of mentality is what one would expect of those creating stories about the god to promote to themselves why this god over other gods is the best god. Logically, it makes no sense whatsoever God would try to prove himself to those he was wiping off the face of the earth. Besides, doesn't this sound completely egotistical? "I'm God, not you! How dare you! I'm God! I'm God! I'm God!". Isn't this childish?

So you see the flood as a myth then? Noah was not a real person and the wickedness of humanity and their response to Noah's warning is just a story? Jesus spoke about him and said that these last days would see a similar degeneration into wickedness and a similar response to the warning like Noah gave, but the people were bent on doing their own thing. (Matt 24:37-39; 24:14)

Well, sure. Mythology is useful for teaching certain truths. It doesn't have to be historical fact for the message to have meaning, don't you know?
That Jesus would cite it is irrelevant to it being historical fact or not. It's a story with a message. Why not use it?

My parents loved me enough to discipline me. It was painful sometimes but I learned to be obedient and to comply with the rules of the household. In those days, that kind of discipline was accepted as the "norm".

Yeah, no. The "norm" does not make it healthy. Slavery was "the norm" too in the past. As was genocide. "The norm" doesn't make anything good just because it was normal.

When I married and left home, I applied the same discipline to my own children....they were loved and never felt that their discipline was an injustice.

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure you want to believe that. Maybe they tell you they were okay with it because they love you. Maybe they don't question things themselves. That's sort of how these sorts of things perpetuate themselves, as it did with you.

Times have changed.....these days it is not legal to discipline a child that way, but discipline can still be administered lovingly. It still hurts, but in a different way. (Prov 22:6; 29:15)

It's not legal because we are in fact much more aware of the damage these ideas from our primative past inflicted upon others. Don't make the mistake that the past had this all figured out! Not at all. This is the problem when you elevate mythological figures as more informed that we are today. That's a very poor assumption easily disproved.

Unfortunately, not everyone responds to the kind of discipline that worked on you. Every child is different. Some respond to a word or a facial expression of disapproval. Others require a stronger approach and still others are willful, no matter what discipline is administered. You cannot have a blanket..."one size fits all" approach.

Yeah, to some extent yes. But whiping and beating, hittling with a belt, slapping, locking in a room, or.......... shunning............... is not, never has been, healthy or effective. You want to use an electric cattle prod to train a horse? Then they are a F'd up fool. That's just ignorance and mentally distorted. That's the same thing I hear in those who justify abusing children who do not "obey" their parents. That's just abusive parents. Nothing more.

I think you are a living example of that. But in reading the Bible, we cannot pick and choose the parts that make God into the person we want to worship. A balanced approach is to ask why he did what he did and seek the answer, rather than ignoring the parts of the Bible that we may find distasteful. All of scripture tells us something about God's personality.

Or ignoring the parts of the Bible that show abuse is wrong.

I never said otherwise. I said his love is tempered by his other qualities. Justice demand action. Wisdom dictates the the penalty and the correct administration of power carries it out. All of God's attributes are in perfect balance.

You still don't get it. Love is not a quality of God. It's his very Being. I guess you don't understand that.

Anyone can selectively quote scripture to promote their own view.

Yes, including yourself and your organization. That destroys it being an dictatorial absolute, doesn't it?

When Jesus said to the crowds in his Sermon on the Mount "you have heard it said", he was speaking about the Pharisees' interpretation of the law......when he told them "but I say to you" he was correcting that wrong interpretation. There is no way that Jesus would dismantle the laws of his God. He said he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. (Matt 5:17, 18)

It's not a matter of wrong interpretation. It's a matter of missing the point. One can interpret scripture a thousand ways. What actually matters is how one applies it! Does it bear spiritual fruit? Yes or no? If it bears fruit, it doesn't matter how you interpret it! Very simple.

Here' feast upon this passage and see if you can make sense of it in light of having "correct beliefs":

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone.

~ Ro. 14
​

So, wow. I really wonder how many "you need to believe correctly, you need to obey the rules", folks actually get this? Paul very clearly is saying "God doesn't care!".

I agree, but when a child knows better, we expect more of him. Making mistakes for learning is one thing but making monumental mistakes that can have devastating consequences for themselves and others is a whole different kettle of fish. Wayward teens do not have the maturity to see beyond the action. One stupid decision and they could pay for it for the rest of their lives. Those are not the kinds of mistakes you allow if you can avoid it.

What I highlighted in red and blue above are contradictions to each other. You say when a child knows better, and then say they don't have the maturity to see beyond their action. That gets rid of "they now better". Doesn't it?

There is a lesson here. We are all ignorant and foolish. Yet would a God of Love, not lovingly draw us forward and not whip and beat us? Again, I come back to our home lives and our ideas of God based upon our parents.

Where do you think false religious beliefs come from?

From minds that try to figure out God without having any knowledge of the heart. But they are only "false" in the sense they are just ignorant. Based upon the best they can do being blinded spiritually, like so very many religious groups that claim to have the truth "restored" to them.

According to the Jesus, the ruler of this world is satan the devil. The apostles also speak much about this enemy of ours. (1 John 5:19) If this enemy of God is promoting beliefs that dishonor God and teach falsehoods about him, why would God turn a blind eye to that? Why would God tell his people to be careful about NOT adopting the ways of the Canaanites, if they were in fact Canaanites themselves? (Deut 18:9-12)

I hear a lot of misinformed interpretations in here. I ask this question rather pointedly. What does your heart tell you?

By your own admission, you are a loner, not attached to any religion.

Once upon a time I was "homeless", as I said recently in another thread. Right now, I would say as Christ would say, "I am all religions, I am none". Which religion is God? That's the one I am.

Does that put you in a better position to understand and interpret scripture?

Actually, yes.

When were God's people ever a man/woman band?

Uh, yes. Abraham? Jesus?

They have always been a collective, presided over by those appointed to lead them.

No. When you die and stand before God, will it be just you, or your group?

Since the devil sets up rival systems of worship, it is up to us to choose our teachers very carefully. Those who only wish teach themselves have a fool for an educator.

Those who follow others and do not listen to God within, will never see the Kingdom of God.

 

[Vidarsdottir]

The capacity for love exists in all of us, yes. Even 'lesser' animals. I just finished assit-feeding an ailing cat in the end stages of renal failure. He's not at the point he's suffering, but he's not able to care for himself. I'm picking up the slack for him even though this means I get very little sleep because I love my fuzzy little terror. The assist feedings and fluids are the only reason he's still alive to go about his naughty kitty way, doing naughty kitty things - though his stroke slowed him down considerably. I know he loves me as well in his own way from his behavior towards me versus his behavior towards others. I will be there for him to the end and if that means holding him while we help him to the end because he's suffering, I'll do that, too. My love for that cat is so unconditional and so boundless, even though it is perfectly acceptable in our society and would save me a lot of trouble, money and time, I am not having him put down. He's not suffering, his quality of life is otherwise good and if I'm willing to off my best furry friend as a matter of convenience, I'd be no better than the people who abandoned him outside where I found him half starved years ago. I will always do the right thing for those I love, human or not, no matter how upsetting or inconvenient it is for myself.

Doing the right thing, no matter what, is what love is all about to me. If you are human, anyway. My cat - well, you'd have to know him.

As far as the Christian deity goes - meh. I wouldn't worry about that dude one bit no matter what faith I happened to claim. He does his own thing, as deities tend to do, and he seems to have a habit of picking and choosing who he will allow to follow him and his instructions. That's not a big concern to me either. We just open up his book and what do we find? "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Romans 11:32) That's a pretty sweeping statement. Don't know if that is what some think of when they think 'love' of any kind, but to those who follow that faith it is a verse they should be aware of simply because it does seem to indicate that shifty as he is, their deity isn't going to get roasty toasty on anyone over simple disobedience or disbelief ('disbelief' is an alternate translation occasionally used rather than the 'disobedience' I quoted above).