Unconsciously inventing problems for ourselves?

[Quintessence]

Well the focus of my topic was about whether you invent problems for yourself if you run out of problems - and how this relates to religion and spirituality.

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at - religion is one's foundational narratives and traditions frame things in different ways. Teleology (purposiveness) is very much a religious thing - I don't believe the universe is designed to (or purposefully) creates problems for humans. If you don't believe the universe is a problem(much less purposefully creating problems for you), the logic doesn't follow to then go "I'm going to manufacture problems when the universe runs out of problems to give me." You don't see the universe as giving you problems in the first place. It's an outlook thing, I guess? Maybe I'm not communicating well...

 

[excreationist]

Well Mark Manson mainly talks about solutions vs distractions. Distractions can make people very comforted in the short to medium term including that guy who felt high for six months after converting to Jesus... I mean the idea of Heaven isn't really solving real world problems (which are the 5 levels/needs) so then it is a distraction (I think).

What percentage of real world problems are connected human psychological hang-ups? Becoming a better person can lead to solving real world problems, so can religion that triggers a lasting personal transformation properly be called a distraction?

I think converts to Christianity would often fantasize about Heaven...
Mark Manson says this:

Life Is a Video Game—Here Are the Cheat Codes

Welcome, Player One, to a strategy guide for the game known as Life.

markmanson.net

CHEAT #4: STOP FANTASIZING
...
Fantasies are like any other Distraction – they are to be used sparingly and for nothing other than pure enjoyment. It’s when they begin to sustain your sense of self-worth, your desire for importance in this world, that you will be hobbling yourself, and you will never Level Up again in Life.

As far as a personal transformation goes, it depends on how much better you are at choosing solutions over distractions (distractions would include things like being a drunkard). Hang-ups could basically just involve distractions (they could limit how well solutions can be pursued). Note I'm not sure how much I agree with his "cheats".
I have no idea about the percentage of real world problems but I'd say that fantasizing about Heaven is a distraction. Perhaps prayer is too? Not sure. Maybe it is a form of positive thinking...

 

[excreationist]

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at - religion is one's foundational narratives and traditions frame things in different ways. Teleology (purposiveness) is very much a religious thing - I don't believe the universe is designed to (or purposefully) creates problems for humans. If you don't believe the universe is a problem(much less purposefully creating problems for you), the logic doesn't follow to then go "I'm going to manufacture problems when the universe runs out of problems to give me." You don't see the universe as giving you problems in the first place. It's an outlook thing, I guess? Maybe I'm not communicating well...

Well I literally believe I'm in a video game - Mark Manson seems to be using a metaphor especially when talking about how to access the "cheats".

I think it resembles the "real world" but they intentionally wanted to make suffering/problems unavoidable. I think basically every single religion/spirituality says that suffering can be permanently avoided - e.g. Heaven or nirvana, etc (and the book I mentioned in the OP). I think consciousness will definitely eventually end one day. But the end of our lives could result in an afterlife experience:

NDEs & the Afterlife - Life's Player

Near Death Experiences (NDEs), waking up, and hell

lifesplayer.com

I think the "real world" that this life is based on also caused people to invent problems. Maybe this sometimes didn't happen due to gene mutations affecting manic episodes but in this life I think there is no permanent escape while consciousness continues. Maybe when minds are uploaded into computers they could tweak how emotions work but I think they could still malfunction (it is possible for basically any machine/system to malfunction).

 

[crossfire]

I think converts to Christianity would often fantasize about Heaven...
Mark Manson says this:

Life Is a Video Game—Here Are the Cheat Codes

Welcome, Player One, to a strategy guide for the game known as Life.

markmanson.net

As far as a personal transformation goes, it depends on how much better you are at choosing solutions over distractions (distractions would include things like being a drunkard). Hang-ups could basically just involve distractions (they could limit how well solutions can be pursued). Note I'm not sure how much I agree with his "cheats".
I have no idea about the percentage of real world problems but I'd say that fantasizing about Heaven is a distraction. Perhaps prayer is too? Not sure. Maybe it is a form of positive thinking...

Would you count ending greed, hatred, and delusion that can overcome your mind as distractions?
Wouldn't the part about greed hatred and delusion overcoming your mind count as distractions?

 

[crossfire]

Well Mark Manson mainly talks about solutions vs distractions. Distractions can make people very comforted in the short to medium term including that guy who felt high for six months after converting to Jesus... I mean the idea of Heaven isn't really solving real world problems (which are the 5 levels/needs) so then it is a distraction (I think).

The idea of heaven as a distraction can be resolved through the Four Solaces (what I call the Buddhist's version of Pascal's Wager) found in verse 17 of the Kalama Sutta.

Kalama Sutta: The Buddha's Charter of Free Inquiry

www.accesstoinsight.org

 

[excreationist]

The idea of heaven as a distraction can be resolved through the Four Solaces (what I call the Buddhist's version of Pascal's Wager) found in verse 17 of the Kalama Sutta.

Kalama Sutta: The Buddha's Charter of Free Inquiry

www.accesstoinsight.org

I asked Copilot for a summary:

The "Four Solaces" are mentioned in the Kalama Sutta, a Buddhist scripture. They are assurances or consolations for those who follow the teachings of the Buddha and lead a virtuous life1. The four solaces are:

1. Solace in the here and now: The assurance that one's actions have immediate positive effects on one's mind and life.

2. Solace in the next world: The belief that good deeds will lead to a favorable rebirth.

3. Solace in the here and now and the next world: The combined assurance of both immediate and future benefits.

4. Solace in the cessation of suffering: The ultimate solace of attaining Nirvana, the end of all suffering and the cycle of rebirth.

I kind of agree with those. BTW does Nirvana mean the end of consciousness/life?

 

[excreationist]

Would you count ending greed, hatred, and delusion that can overcome your mind as distractions?
Wouldn't the part about greed hatred and delusion overcoming your mind count as distractions?

Sorry those questions are too tricky.

 

[crossfire]

I asked Copilot for a summary:

I kind of agree with those. BTW does Nirvana mean the end of consciousness/life?

No. Nirvana is a state of consciousness where you have ferretted out and ended attachments and addictions.

 

[crossfire]

Sorry those questions are too tricky.

Ok, isn't whenever your rational mind is overcome a distraction (by definition?)

 

[excreationist]

No. Nirvana is a state of consciousness where you have ferretted out and ended attachments and addictions.

I was wondering - in the traditional belief about Nirvana, does the consciousness literally last forever? I mean more than a googolplex years?

 

[excreationist]

Ok, isn't whenever your rational mind is overcome a distraction (by definition?)

Well Mark Manson says:

Solutions are actions and pursuits that resolve a problem preventing it from continuing or happening again in the future. Distractions are actions or pursuits designed to either make the Player unaware of the problem’s existence or to dull the pain the problem may be causing.
....
Solutions move us towards the next Level, Distractions keep us on the same Level

 

[crossfire]

I was wondering - in the traditional belief about Nirvana, does the consciousness literally last forever? I mean more than a googolplex years?

Consciousness is not constant--it arises and ends.

 

[excreationist]

Consciousness is not constant--it arises and ends.

So I wonder how long Nirvana might typically last for... a year? a century?

 

[crossfire]

So I wonder how long Nirvana might typically last for... a year? a century?

Nirvana means "blowing out" or "extinguishing." How long does a candle remain extinguished? How long will an addiction remain extinguished?

 

[crossfire]

Nirvana means "blowing out" or "extinguishing." How long does a candle remain extinguished? How long will an addiction remain extinguished?

There is such a thing in Buddhism known as "nibbana with fuel remaining" and "nibbana with no fuel remaining." Nibbana with fuel remaining would be like an extinguished candle that can be relit--the addiction is still there and the person is subject to a relapse. Nibbana with no fuel remaining would be like an extinguished candle that has no wax left and can't be relit. The person is cured of their addiction for good, unless they re-establish a new addiction with new fuel.

 

[excreationist]

There is such a thing in Buddhism known as "nibbana with fuel remaining" and "nibbana with no fuel remaining." Nibbana with fuel remaining would be like an extinguished candle that can be relit--the addiction is still there and the person is subject to a relapse. Nibbana with no fuel remaining would be like an extinguished candle that has no wax left and can't be relit. The person is cured of their addiction for good, unless they re-establish a new addiction with new fuel.

So sometimes in Nirvana their consciousness and existence ends and sometimes they go back to suffering in an ordinary world? (maybe I'm mixing up Nirvana and nibbana)

 

[crossfire]

So sometimes in Nirvana their consciousness and existence ends and sometimes they go back to suffering in an ordinary world? (maybe I'm mixing up Nirvana and nibbana)

Nibbana is the Pali word, Nirvana is the Sanskrit word. I will generally use the Pali word when it comes to technical explanations.
Nibbana (nirvana) is a state of consciousness where all other thoughts have been ferretted out, identified, and observed to disappear. During this state of consciousness, you let go of everything, including addictions. You eventually will come back to regular consciousness.
Paranibbana (Paranirvana) is when an enlightened being who has overcome all their addictions with no fuel remaining dies. They are no longer bound by addiction to rebirth (in any realm,) and are referred to as "non-returners."

 

[excreationist]

Nibbana is the Pali word, Nirvana is the Sanskrit word. I will generally use the Pali word when it comes to technical explanations.
Nibbana (nirvana) is a state of consciousness where all other thoughts have been ferretted out, identified, and observed to disappear. During this state of consciousness, you let go of everything, including addictions. You eventually will come back to regular consciousness.
Paranibbana (Paranirvana) is when an enlightened being who has overcome all their addictions with no fuel remaining dies. They are no longer bound by addiction to rebirth (in any realm,) and are referred to as "non-returners."

It sounds like by default the soul is eternal and you can only end it all if you reach enlightenment properly. My belief is that consciousness ends when the simulation wants to save resources or you could end it if the simulation allows you to (otherwise you could have an afterlife like the Roy game, etc).

 

[crossfire]

It sounds like by default the soul is eternal and you can only end it all if you reach enlightenment properly. My belief is that consciousness ends when the simulation wants to save resources or you could end it if the simulation allows you to (otherwise you could have an afterlife like the Roy game, etc).

Buddha said that it is craving (tanha) that fuels rebirth. The word "soul" means a breathing creature to me. Are you referring to Atman?

Ātman (Hinduism) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Atman is a Hindu concept whose definition was rejected by Buddha.
You might like to hear what the Advaitists think about this.

 

[excreationist]

Buddha said that it is craving (tanha) that fuels rebirth. The word "soul" means a breathing creature to me. Are you referring to Atman?

Ātman (Hinduism) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Atman is a Hindu concept whose definition was rejected by Buddha.
You might like to hear what the Advaitists think about this.

I think the term "rebirth" is consistent with my beliefs (like the Roy game) though the NPCs usually wouldn't reincarnate. By "soul" I mean a consciousness that can exist if your body is dead and can be reincarnated or go to Heaven, etc. I don't really use the term but thought it might be relevant to Nirvana.