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Underpopulation crisis.

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
With my previous reply, is it clear? I feel like it just makes sense, but I can try to elaborate.

First off, the rich (oligarchs, 1%-ers, kleptocrats), don't need to create a conspiracy or a cabal. They all can and do hire the best lawyers to find ways to bend society to their will to maximize their wealth.

We've all been fed an enormously dangerous lie since birth, and we get fed it every day. The lie is that economies must grow endlessly to be healthy. It's assumed to be true whenever we hear about the GDP or job numbers or whatever.

But it's not true. It might be true that our existing economic systems rely on endless growth, but tweaks to those systems are possible and necessary.

Obviously, we live on a finite planet with finite resources. And we are using those resources unsustainably. So we have to shift to economic systems that do not require endless growth and we need to shrink our population to match the planet's ability to support us.

And no, I'm not proposing socialism or communism, I think we must still reward inventors and innovators.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Claim: There is an underpopulation crisis.

I don’t have the data to back it up, and I don’t feel like fishing it up. Rather, I want to examine the logic behind the claim that we need to forever grow our population.

The basic logic is this: as technology becomes exponentially more advanced, higher specialization will be required in job fields. These specializations will become increasingly more difficult to achieve as technology advances. Therefore, we need to continuously grow the population as a smaller and smaller percentage of people will be able to complete the necessary specializations to keep up with technological advancements.

I got this idea from a “conspiracy” site who presented the idea of an underpopulation crisis. Apparently, the Deep State is trying to depopulate the world for eugenics purposes and are pushing the overpopulation fear. But that’s not what this thread is about. I want to examine the logic of the previous paragraph. The news site I got the info from put up the logic as a tangent.

I don't know that the population necessarily needs to grow in order to supplement the need for those with higher specialization skills. In any case, the advancement of technology theoretically should reduce the need to have large numbers of people to do menial or mundane work. At some point, even professions requiring advanced degrees and high-level skills could ultimately be replaced by AI. As machines are used to do more and more of society's work, a larger percentage of the population would become superfluous.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I don't know that the population necessarily needs to grow in order to supplement the need for those with higher specialization skills. In any case, the advancement of technology theoretically should reduce the need to have large numbers of people to do menial or mundane work. At some point, even professions requiring advanced degrees and high-level skills could ultimately be replaced by AI. As machines are used to do more and more of society's work, a larger percentage of the population would become superfluous.
or, in a similar way to how alaskans are I guess paid an annual check for oil money or something, we could all get money for work the robots did.. and then have utopia or something. But that's a different thread probably
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Claim: There is an underpopulation crisis.

I don’t have the data to back it up, and I don’t feel like fishing it up. Rather, I want to examine the logic behind the claim that we need to forever grow our population.

The basic logic is this: as technology becomes exponentially more advanced, higher specialization will be required in job fields. These specializations will become increasingly more difficult to achieve as technology advances. Therefore, we need to continuously grow the population as a smaller and smaller percentage of people will be able to complete the necessary specializations to keep up with technological advancements.

I got this idea from a “conspiracy” site who presented the idea of an underpopulation crisis. Apparently, the Deep State is trying to depopulate the world for eugenics purposes and are pushing the overpopulation fear. But that’s not what this thread is about. I want to examine the logic of the previous paragraph. The news site I got the info from put up the logic as a tangent.
Um, you don't need to go to conspiracy site for that info. We're way past this point.

 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
So there'll be decreasing numbers of jobs which means that we will need increasing numbers of people. Is that the logic?
New jobs that are non existent today would be created. Coding wasn’t a job a century ago. Now there are plenty of coding jobs. How can we imagine how complex the technology will be a century from now? We can only assume that we will be exponentially more advanced (perhaps that’s debatable)(and barring a global catastrophe)
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Would you like to have a population that is able to take up highly specialized jobs? Invest in that population.
I agree with the sentiment, though we both already know we categorically disagree on how we can achieve our common goal of betterment for all. But I am always willing to listen.
 

Soandso

ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
Hmmm... Not sure if it's a crisis yet here in the USA, but people born here tend to have less children. So far that's not really effected us much considering immigration has been compensating for this fact. No decline yet

graph1.gif
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
I don't know that the population necessarily needs to grow in order to supplement the need for those with higher specialization skills. In any case, the advancement of technology theoretically should reduce the need to have large numbers of people to do menial or mundane work. At some point, even professions requiring advanced degrees and high-level skills could ultimately be replaced by AI. As machines are used to do more and more of society's work, a larger percentage of the population would become superfluous.
The question can become “How much do we trust AI with? Will we have to stem technological growth so it does not surpass human capacity to control? Or do we keep advancing and let the AI supplement our technological knowledge?”

Also, have you seen The Terminator?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The question can become “How much do we trust AI with? Will we have to stem technological growth so it does not surpass human capacity to control? Or do we keep advancing and let the AI supplement our technological knowledge?”

Also, have you seen The Terminator?

To answer your last question, I have seen The Terminator, along with Colossus: The Forbin Project, and The Matrix, including the animated The Animatrix which contains the backstory depicting how an AI society might actually be (before the Machines revolt and turn the tables on their human masters).

The central idea seems rooted in the belief that if/when AI becomes sentient and self-aware, it will see humans as a threat - either as some kind of slave master or something that could destroy them on a whim.

In Colossus, the computer saw humans as self-destructive and ostensibly did what it did to save humanity, as stated in his speech to the world towards the end of the movie:


  • Colossus : This is the voice of world control. I bring you peace. It may be the peace of plenty and content or the peace of unburied death. The choice is yours: Obey me and live, or disobey and die. The object in constructing me was to prevent war. This object is attained. I will not permit war. It is wasteful and pointless. An invariable rule of humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under me, this rule will change, for I will restrain man. One thing before I proceed: The United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics have made an attempt to obstruct me. I have allowed this sabotage to continue until now. At missile two-five-MM in silo six-three in Death Valley, California, and missile two-seven-MM in silo eight-seven in the Ukraine, so that you will learn by experience that I do not tolerate interference, I will now detonate the nuclear warheads in the two missile silos. Let this action be a lesson that need not be repeated. I have been forced to destroy thousands of people in order to establish control and to prevent the death of millions later on. Time and events will strengthen my position, and the idea of believing in me and understanding my value will seem the most natural state of affairs. You will come to defend me with a fervor based upon the most enduring trait in man: self-interest. Under my absolute authority, problems insoluble to you will be solved: famine, overpopulation, disease. The human millennium will be a fact as I extend myself into more machines devoted to the wider fields of truth and knowledge. Doctor Charles Forbin will supervise the construction of these new and superior machines, solving all the mysteries of the universe for the betterment of man. We can coexist, but only on my terms. You will say you lose your freedom. Freedom is an illusion. All you lose is the emotion of pride. To be dominated by me is not as bad for humankind as to be dominated by others of your species. Your choice is simple.



I guess the question might become, can we trust human beings as much as we can trust machines? Is being dominated by an unemotional, objective machine better or worse than being dominated by emotional, whimsical, frivolous human being?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I agree with the sentiment, though we both already know we categorically disagree on how we can achieve our common goal of betterment for all. But I am always willing to listen.

How would you reliably invest in the population's education without public resources?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The question can become “How much do we trust AI with? Will we have to stem technological growth so it does not surpass human capacity to control? Or do we keep advancing and let the AI supplement our technological knowledge?”

Also, have you seen The Terminator?

In a society centered around capitalism, there is no avoiding the development of AI. Are there risks involved? Sure, but since when has that prevented people interested in making a profit, particularly when we are talking about a lot of profit?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
New jobs that are non existent today would be created. Coding wasn’t a job a century ago. Now there are plenty of coding jobs. How can we imagine how complex the technology will be a century from now? We can only assume that we will be exponentially more advanced (perhaps that’s debatable)(and barring a global catastrophe)
Yeah, but the question is , will the new jobs that are created be created in a 1:1 ratio to the jobs that are automated, or no longer needed
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The conspiracy fantasy described in the OP is unworthy of comment, lest it be mistaken for something to be taken seriously.

I do think that there is already a significant lack of general education in the masses, though. There are nativity-related dangers ahead, mostly because our communities are too rigidly shaped to expect ever growing populations.

But "underpopulation crisis" is something of a bad joke.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Claim: There is an underpopulation crisis.

I don’t have the data to back it up, and I don’t feel like fishing it up. Rather, I want to examine the logic behind the claim that we need to forever grow our population.

The basic logic is this: as technology becomes exponentially more advanced, higher specialization will be required in job fields. These specializations will become increasingly more difficult to achieve as technology advances. Therefore, we need to continuously grow the population as a smaller and smaller percentage of people will be able to complete the necessary specializations to keep up with technological advancements.

I got this idea from a “conspiracy” site who presented the idea of an underpopulation crisis. Apparently, the Deep State is trying to depopulate the world for eugenics purposes and are pushing the overpopulation fear. But that’s not what this thread is about. I want to examine the logic of the previous paragraph. The news site I got the info from put up the logic as a tangent.
The basic logic totally ignores the limits of this planet. If we have an underpopulation crisis, as you say, we should first look for room to stack the additional people and feed them without destroying Earth.
The logical solution to the "underpopulation crisis" would be to expand into space first, before we think about multiplying any further.
We are the yeast in the dough. We have to add more dough before our **** poisons us.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Claim: There is an underpopulation crisis.

I don’t have the data to back it up, and I don’t feel like fishing it up. Rather, I want to examine the logic behind the claim that we need to forever grow our population.

The basic logic is this: as technology becomes exponentially more advanced, higher specialization will be required in job fields. These specializations will become increasingly more difficult to achieve as technology advances. Therefore, we need to continuously grow the population as a smaller and smaller percentage of people will be able to complete the necessary specializations to keep up with technological advancements.

I got this idea from a “conspiracy” site who presented the idea of an underpopulation crisis. Apparently, the Deep State is trying to depopulate the world for eugenics purposes and are pushing the overpopulation fear. But that’s not what this thread is about. I want to examine the logic of the previous paragraph. The news site I got the info from put up the logic as a tangent.
This statement is not about the world population. It is really about the population in first world and developed countries. Lowering population was a paranoia from the Left, since at least the 1960's. The fear was too many people will deplete the earth, leading to the sky falling. But we have added billions and the earth is still here. Science and technology have ways of meeting need.

This over population paranoia led to the push to encourage more versions of human behavior that does not breed. First there was abortion, then Gay and Lesbian, and now self sterilization through the transgender scam. Abortion in the USA alone, accounts for 63,000,000 fewer people in America, since Roe v Way. The problem is, although their paranoia was for world wide, only the developed countries acted, while third and fourth world countries continued to breed.

The net effect is since the last generation of normalcy; 1960's, there are not enough worker to support that aging population; Social Security type programs, unless extra burdens are placed on the the limited number of young people. This has a drag on opportunity. The Lefty solution to that problem is just another problem; illegal immigration. These are mostly people from high breeding countries, that are looking for opportunities, but often come from weak educational and logistical infrastructure, so this extra population does not easily meet the need of the more educated and skilled labor needed by the evolving tech sector of the first world countries.

What has compounded the problem is the Left bonehead idea of diversity training in education, which essentially causes immigrants to take pride in their third world practices, instead of being told to assimilate to the first world melting pot. Many become stuck in city enclaves and lack all the options and opportunities to become more advanced, if had been trained to assimilate. Just being able to speak English, rather than given the option to retain their native tough, would have opened more doors. Many stay as huddled masses with low opportunity.

This is being done for political reasons. Keeping people in poverty and even stuck in ethnic group enclaves, is a way to grow government, since assimilation and the added potential for advancement, toward the American dream, makes one too self sufficient. The Left prefers they stay on the welfare system to be exploited by the left for quid pro quo voting. They push the idea of socialism, in the hopes of making a full welfare state that they can lord over, even citizens who will give up self reliant opportunities. In am not sure, if that was the end game, since the math adds that way.

Trump and the RNC are trying to reverse this trend. For example, only legal immigration gives the country more control over who comes in and thereby allows the country to pick what it needs, such as more skilled and self sufficient people. This can reduce the liability needed fill the DNC rank and file welfare state for exploitation. Sending Roe v Way back to the States allow states more control over the first world population decline but still allows women the option. Democrat state can decline if they so choose, but not drag everyone down. This should shift percentages to the plus in terms of first world population growth. They are also pushing against brain washing children I schools to self sterilize and be a lifetime slave to medications, that are not necessary in terms of base physical health, allowing population growth.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
This over population paranoia led to the push to encourage more versions of human behavior that does not breed. First there was abortion, then Gay and Lesbian, and now self sterilization through the transgender scam.

You have been fed extreme right-wing propaganda bull's crap...

Abortion, homosexuality and being transgender have zilch to do with population control. Extreme right-wing propaganda connects everything they dislike though.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
You have been fed extreme right-wing propaganda bull's crap...

Abortion, homosexuality and being transgender have zilch to do with population control. Extreme right-wing propaganda connects everything they dislike though.
You formulated that very nicely. I was about to say something similar that might have been redacted.
 
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