Understanding Hell

[Just_me_Mike]

AGAIN I started this thread, and for the record, there is no free will when it comes to choosing a relationship with God. The bible clearly states that in the book of Romans. So, yes I can choose the socks I wear todya, but I can not choose if God is going to save me or not. That is contrary to the word of God. If a christian believes that not to be true, they are indoctrinated from their church and belive in what they were taught, and have not read the bible for themselves, that NO ONE WILL SEEK AFTER GOD. So then who can be saved?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Revelations
16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Ah, so the writer of Revelations was mistaken. What a relief.:woohoo:

No the author was not mistaken, In verse 20:13 it is referring to an old prophesy in the book of Deuteronomy, where it talks about judgement day. That everyone that was not saved would be raised the last day, some will be alive, and others will just be bones.
20:14 We learn that death and hell, which are both words for "GRAVE" are anihilated. The second death is simply when God ceases something to ever exist again. The fire and so forth we read about is an indication of God's judgement, which we read about all through the bible. It is only church people who have misinterprutted this to scare people into their churches. There will be no eternal torment.
20:15 Again, the lake of fire is a place signifying that it is total anihilation. It is not a literal lake of fire.

If you also read in Revelation it say that the suffering of judgement would only last 153 days, or 5 months. Once that is done, everything will be over. This is in perfect harmony with the rest of the bible.

 

[Seven]

You misunderstand how God views existence. First of all the future is always in motion. Every choice you could make now has a different future. God is able to see in all futures at once. Because he exist outside of time. He is only hoping we make the right choice. It is much more complex than that, but that is the simplest way that I can think of to put it.

How do you know?
I don't mean to sound rude, but I can't think of any other way to put it

 

[Enoch07]

How do you know?
I don't mean to sound rude, but I can't think of any other way to put it

Its a matter of faith. I can no more prove it than you can disprove it, so take it or leave it. hehe

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Enouch07, I am a brother in Christ and I am warning you, you are wrong. You are teaching people you have a choice to choose God. Let me ask you this. What choice to Lazarus have when he was dead and Jesus raised him? What part did Lazarus play in that?
You see it is popular in the church to teach we can ask for forgiveness, and be saved. We read in the bible we can do that, but again we have to compare that statement and those like it with the rest of the bible to make sure we are truly understanding what it is saying. There is no way we can get ourself sved, by just making a choice. By doing that we take all the glory away from God. If you are God's elect, he will choose you and you ill have nothing to do with that. Take Saul (Paul) agian for an example, what part did he play in his salvation? Where was free will then? He was struk down by God, and had no choice.

 

[Seven]

Its a matter of faith. I can no more prove it than you can disprove it, so take it or leave it. hehe

Fair enough

 

[HoldemDB9]

3. Of course its a sin to not believe in God. If you had/have children would you not be mad if they walked out on you and denied you after all you have done for them.

4. You are not destined to be punished or rewarded. You have the choice to choose your fate.

No you do not have a simple choice, otherwise everyone on the planet would choose not to go to hell and they would become a Christian, why on earth would they choose to go to hell? They are obviously being honest and going with what they truly believe is right.

Now what if your religion is not true, and when you die God says you are going to be punished for not being a Muslim. Did you "choose" to be punished? No you didn't, you simply got unlucky and you chose the wrong religion. Its just the same if Christianity is true, all you did was get lucky, if you disagree with this then please explain how being right about a belief based on faith is anything other than sheer luck. A God that punishes and rewards based on luck would be an unjust God, and I don't believe that God is unjust, therefore I don't believe in the Christian God.

Another thing. Not everyone gets an equal chance to become a Christian in this life. So there are only two options, either your God is unjust or he lets non-Christians into heaven - which is it?

 

[Enoch07]

Enouch07, I am a brother in Christ and I am warning you, you are wrong. You are teaching people you have a choice to choose God. Let me ask you this. What choice to Lazarus have when he was dead and Jesus raised him? What part did Lazarus play in that?
You see it is popular in the church to teach we can ask for forgiveness, and be saved. We read in the bible we can do that, but again we have to compare that statement and those like it with the rest of the bible to make sure we are truly understanding what it is saying. There is no way we can get ourself sved, by just making a choice. By doing that we take all the glory away from God. If you are God's elect, he will choose you and you ill have nothing to do with that. Take Saul (Paul) agian for an example, what part did he play in his salvation? Where was free will then? He was struk down by God, and had no choice.

God's elect you are correct about. But not everyone is God's elect. Some people are just lost souls, who need help to get back to God.

Never said we could save ourselves. Jesus does the saving. Thats why he died on the cross and became our Passover. To defeat death (satan) by giving us salvation through Him. Once you accept Christ its a matter of repentance and trying to fulfill God's will in your life as much as possible. And yes it is a choice. You have to accept Christ to be a Christian. As you clearly see there are non-christians here. Everyone of them have yet to make that decision. Maybe some will change their minds maybe not but to interfere with their free will is sinful regardless of who you are.

 

[Enoch07]

No you do not have a simple choice, otherwise everyone on the planet would choose not to go to hell and they would become a Christian, why on earth would they choose to go to hell? They are obviously being honest and going with what they truly believe is right.

Now what if your religion is not true, and when you die God says you are going to be punished for not being a Muslim. Did you "choose" to be punished? No you didn't, you simply got unlucky and you chose the wrong religion. Its just the same if Christianity is true, all you did was get lucky, if you disagree with this then please explain how being right about a belief based on faith is anything other than sheer luck. A God that punishes and rewards based on luck would be an unjust God, and I don't believe that God is unjust, therefore I don't believe in the Christian God.

Another thing. Not everyone gets an equal chance to become a Christian in this life. So there are only two options, either your God is unjust or he lets non-Christians into heaven - which is it?

That is what the millenium is for. Time to be used to teach non-christians the word of God and give them that choice. God is fair as fair can be. Everyone has the option to learn it either in life or during the millenium.

 

[HoldemDB9]

That is what the millenium is for. Time to be used to teach non-christians the word of God and give them that choice. God is fair as fair can be. Everyone has the option to learn it either in life or during the millenium.

This is just a complete dodge of what I brought up.

Again. Not everyone gets an equal chance to become a Christian in this life. So there are only two options, either your God is unjust or he lets non-Christians into heaven - which is it? Or is there a 3rd option?

I said that your God is unfair because he punishes and rewards based on luck, you come back saying "God is fair as fair can be" without anything to back this up. If you disagree with me that faith = luck, then please try and explain how. Faith = hope and trust. No matter how much you hope and trust that belief x is correct, it does not at all increase the chance that belief x is correct. There you go, I've just showed you how faith is luck and how your God is unjust, if you disagree with this, then please explain.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Science_is_my_god
I will answer your question. God say's in his wonderful words, that he takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. However it also says he has reserved some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting destruction. So to say he enjoys the pain would be contrary to his words.

This is particularly talked about when Jesus gives the parable of the tares and the wheat. There we learn that the tares have been planted in with the wheat, and the man of the field asks his master should he take out the tares? The master replies, no but wait until the harvest and we will seperate the good from the bad, and the bad throw into the fire.
So it is clear that God will punish, but does that make him sadistic? Maybe, according to our understanding, but I do belive it is his good pleasure to do as he will.

Do you think that the reference to fire could be a reference to spiritual cleansing?

Instead of everlasting punishment perhaps the "Fires of Hell" are actually a cleansing of the spirit before one enters Heaven.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Enoch, Holdem is correct. He is being honest about not wanting to love the God of the bible.
You dodged my point as well. What part did Lazarus play in rising from the dead? If we are spiritually dead from birth, we will NEVER come to god on our own. Read Romans 3: 10-18. that is talking about everyone, not just bad people. So holdem keep up the search brother. Enoch belongs to a church and his teaching are the churches and not that of the Bible.
It is clear he believes in a thousand year reign of Christ on this earth, and probably belongs to or subscribes to a "Church Of God" type ministry.
All churches are wrong! God can not be divided. 1000 denominations can not truly represent Christ. Only the bible can. Again think about what you are saying Enoch before you speak. remeber slow to speak and quick to listen!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Do you think that the reference to fire could be a reference to spiritual cleansing?

Instead of everlasting punishment perhaps the "Fires of Hell" are actually a cleansing of the spirit before one enters Heaven.

This can not be, because as we search the bible for this understanding the language of the bible would not support this. God clearly says he will destroy this earth, and those not written inthe Lambs book of Life will simply be destroyed.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Enoch, Holdem is correct. He is being honest about not wanting to love the God of the bible.

Its not that I don't want to love the God of the Bible, it's just that I don't believe it exists, since I do not believe that God is unjust.

 

[Enoch07]

Holdem I gave you the answer. You just refuse to accept it. I ask that you just digest it for awhile. Itwillend I do not belong to a church. I suggest you study the book of Peter, if you are infact a brother in Christ. It explains the 3 earth ages, which you need to understand in order to understand Gods will.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Its not that I don't want to love the God of the Bible, it's just that I don't believe it exists, since I do not believe that God is unjust.

If you don't mind help me understand what is unjust about God of the bile in your view. Thanks...

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Holdem I gave you the answer. You just refuse to accept it. I ask that you just digest it for awhile. Itwillend I do not belong to a church. I suggest you study the book of Peter, if you are infact a brother in Christ. It explains the 3 earth ages, which you need to understand in order to understand Gods will.

Please enlighten me about the 3 ages. I am pretty comfortable about both books of peter. Please don't tell me you are referring to where Peter speaks about a 1000 years is as 1 day and 1 day is as a thousand years.

I am all ears though.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem I gave you the answer. You just refuse to accept it. I ask that you just digest it for awhile. Itwillend I do not belong to a church. I suggest you study the book of Peter, if you are infact a brother in Christ. It explains the 3 earth ages, which you need to understand in order to understand Gods will.

Typical response from a Christian when they have absolutely nothing to say. Why are you people even here? You wont even answer my questions.

Ill try one more time. Not everyone gets an equal chance to become a Christian in this life. So there are only two options, either your God is unjust or he lets non-Christians into heaven - which is it? Or is there a 3rd option?

If you wont answer for the 3rd time, then please at least tell me why you wont answer.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

This can not be, because as we search the bible for this understanding the language of the bible would not support this. God clearly says he will destroy this earth, and those not written inthe Lambs book of Life will simply be destroyed.

So all those souls (which god created/formed) who are not in this special book, don't have a back stage pass and aren't invited to the cast party afterward?
Even if they played the game by the "rules"?

I just can't see it that way sorry.

 

[HoldemDB9]

If you don't mind help me understand what is unjust about God of the bile in your view. Thanks...

God sends people to heaven or hell based on whether or not they are a Christian.

They have the time in this life to become a Christian.

Not all get an equal chance to become Christian, therefore not all get an equal chance to enter heaven.

Therefore your God is unfair, therefore your God is unjust.