• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Understanding John 1:1

Y

Yahcubs777

Active Member
cOLTER said:
Because God the Father has divine sons. They are All God to us. God the Son returned to God the Father and sent his spirit as he promised. The Father and Son are 2 distinct beings.



John 14:15-31
New International Version

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father,and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
Click to expand...

Jesus His Pre-Eminence is GOD. HE spoke on the shoes of HIS son, Adam, who the builders rejected. Tell me, which church is saying HE is not the Christ, the Son of GOD? But what do they say about Father Adam? Not even one thing good.

Noah was called a child of comfort, I suppose HE is GODs Most Holy Spirit as well?
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
filthyrottendirty said:
“The beginning” refers to the time when God began his creative work and produced the Word. Thereafter, the Word was used by God in the creation of all other things. (John 1:2, 3)
Click to expand...
The Christology of the author of John, like the Christology of Paul, is flavored by Gnosticism. In Gnosticism God is pure and remote spirit, and as such would never stoop to bringing the material world into being. This job then falls to God's created companion in heaven, the demiurge ("craftsman"), whom those authors see as Jesus:

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

In neither case is the claim that Jesus is God, since that is expressly denied by each author again eg:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​
Jesus in Mark, Matthew and Luke also expressly denies he's God, and as with Paul and John, nowhere claims to be God.

If I read your post correctly, you say much the same thing. Please correct me if that's wrong.
​
Jesus does not become God, and God does not become triune, till the 4th century CE. Neither the authors of the NT nor any historical Jesus had ever heard of the Trinity doctrine at that time.

​
 
Last edited:
F

filthyrottendirty

Member
blü 2 said:
The Christology of the author of John, like the Christology of Paul, is flavored by Gnosticism. In Gnosticism God is pure and remote spirit, and as such would never stoop to bringing the material world into being. This job then falls to God's created companion in heaven, the demiurge ("craftsman"), whom those authors see as Jesus:

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

In neither case is the claim that Jesus is God, since that is expressly denied by each author again eg:

I Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philppians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​
Jesus in Mark, Matthew and Luke also expressly denies he's God, and as with Paul and John, nowhere claims to be God.

If I read your post correctly, you say much the same thing. Please correct me if that's wrong.
​
Jesus does not become God, and God does not become triune, till the 4th century CE. Neither the authors of the NT nor any historical Jesus had ever heard of the Trinity doctrine at that time.

​
Click to expand...
You're right, sadly we're in the minority among Christians.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
The Christology of the author of John, like the Christology of Paul, is flavored by Gnosticism. In Gnosticism God is pure and remote spirit, and as such would never stoop to bringing the material world into being. This job then falls to God's created companion in heaven, the demiurge ("craftsman"), whom those authors see as Jesus:

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

In neither case is the claim that Jesus is God, since that is expressly denied by each author again eg:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philppians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​
Jesus in Mark, Matthew and Luke also expressly denies he's God, and as with Paul and John, nowhere claims to be God.

If I read your post correctly, you say much the same thing. Please correct me if that's wrong.
​
Jesus does not become God, and God does not become triune, till the 4th century CE. Neither the authors of the NT nor any historical Jesus had ever heard of the Trinity doctrine at that time.

​
Click to expand...
The life, death and resurrection of Jesus revealed that God has a Son who is divine.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
Lucifer and Satan were sons of God with powers and authority in the chain of command else they could not have fooled the whole world.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
filthyrottendirty said:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
En arche ēn ho Logos, kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon, kai Theos ēn o Logos. – John 1:1 (Greek text)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. – John 1:1 (NWT)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – John 1:1 (KJV)
(Some translations read "the Word was divine.")
“The beginning” refers to the time when God began his creative work and produced the Word. Thereafter, the Word was used by God in the creation of all other things. (John 1:2, 3) The Bible states that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” and that “by means of him all other things were created. Colossians 1:15, 16. -JW.org

Many scholars identify "logos" with God’s wisdom and reason. The logos is the expression of God, and is His communication of Himself, just as a “word” is an outward expression of a person’s thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son, and thus it is perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the “Word.” Jesus is an outward expression of God’s reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason, we call revelation “a word from God” and the Bible “the Word of God.”

If we understand that the logos is God’s expression—His plan, purposes, reason and wisdom, it is clear that they were indeed with Him “in the beginning.” Scripture says that God’s wisdom was “from the beginning” (Prov. 8:23). It was very common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. No ancient Jew reading Proverbs would think that God’s wisdom was a separate person, even though it is portrayed as one in Proverbs chapter 8. “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion."

The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”). The Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures were being translated into Sahidic Coptic (an ancient Egyptian language) during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on Greek manuscripts which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant versions. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of that time, did not have an indefinite article, Sahidic Coptic does.

ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ
ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤΕ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ
John 1:1 (Sahidic Coptic text)

Transliteration:
Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje
Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje

Literal English translation: In the beginning existed the word. And the word existed in the presence of God. And a god was the word.

The Coptic translation says ne.u.noute pe p.Saje: "the Word was a god (or, divine)," not "the Word was God." The Coptic language has both indefinite and definite articles in its grammatical structure. If the Sahidic Coptic translators held the doctrine that "the Word was God," or if the Coptic translators understood the Greek text to say "the Word was God," the Coptic language had the grammatical tools to say so. But they did not write "the Word was God." They wrote "the Word was a god."

Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE and the country was subsequently Hellenized. Greek influence had been in Egypt for some 500 years by the time those translators began their work. Likely made well before Nicea (325 CE), the Coptic text tells us how early translators interpreted John 1:1, apart from the influence of later dogma and church tradition. The Sahidic Coptic version, the earliest translation of the Greek originals into a language that contained the indefinite article, used that indefinite article at John 1:1: “the Word was a god.”
The NWT of John 1:1 is said to be an incorrect translation. Yet, in rendering John 1:1 from Greek into their own native language, the Coptic scribes came to the same understanding 1,700 years ago.
Click to expand...

Yes, "IN" the beginning was the word ( aka pre-human heavenly Jesus )
I find No Scripture that says Jesus was "BEFORE" the beginning.
However, I do find at Psalms 90:2 that God is from: everlasting.
Everlasting as meaning "BEFORE" the beginning of anything else.
So, only God was "BEFORE" the beginning, and Jesus was never "BEFORE" the beginning as his God was.
 
Y

Yahcubs777

Active Member
filthyrottendirty said:
God has more than one son.

Romans 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Click to expand...

No,He has one Son, HIS only Begotten Son, Father Adam, the Son of GOD. Father Adam Spirit Being was birthed by The Most Holy Spirit of GOD.

If you call GOD father, without recognising HIS son, you are calling GOD Abram; assumed father

Saul Paul was very unclear in his writings which has led to the confusion of the church.

Every child of the kingdom is a Son or Daughter of Adam, who is our principal ancestor. Only reason we can call GOD father, is because HIS Son is our principal ancestor.

The add options, are the Angels, Seraphim and cherubim that are pure hominids, by the teachings of Father Adam in Eden; the Micha-el who taught Arch Angel Michael and gave him the authority in his name to do things while he would be in the ghost world. They do not call GOD their father, they call HIM GOD.

No child of the kingdom is an add option (adoption), but a legitimate citizen by birth; genetically linked with the Son of GOD, Adam His Eminence; the Lord of all the administrative heavens.

I'm glad you mentioned that Job, as that is an allegory about the fall of Man. Job is Adam in the Fall.
 
Y

Yahcubs777

Active Member
A Son is a child by birth. The person born was not a creation, that was conceptualised in GODs brain. That is a not a Son. A Son is who you gave birth too.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
Divine is in the eye of the beholder, but Jesus was more than clear on the point that he wasn't God.
You never met my wife, of course.
Click to expand...
Plural manifestation. Jesus was God standing before us anonymously. The person of Michael incarnate as Jesus was clear that he is a Son.

The problem for finite beings is that the Paradise Trinity as the source of subordinate (deities) is nonunderstandable to us because was are personality.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top