Understanding John 1:1

[BilliardsBall]

The word 'echad, "one," is used in the Jewish Scriptures in either a compound or absolute sense. In what sense is 'echad used in the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" (Deuteronomy 6:4)?

Answer:
In such verses as Genesis 1:5: "And there was evening and there was morning, one day," and Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh," the term 'echad, "one," refers to a compound united one. However, 'echad often also means an absolute one. This is illustrated by such verses as 2 Samuel 13:30: "Absolom has slain all the king's sons, and there is not one of them left"; 2 Samuel 17:12: "And of all the men that are with him we will not leave so much as one"; Exodus 9:7: "There did not die of the cattle of Israel even one"; 2 Samuel 17:22: "There lacked not one of them that was not gone over the Jordan"; Ecclesiastes 4:8: There is one [that is alone], and he has not a second; yea, he has neither son nor brother." Clearly, the word "one" used in these verses means an absolute one and is synonymous with the word yachid, "the only one," "alone." It is in this sense, with even greater refinement, that 'echad is used in Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." Here, 'echad is used as a single, absolute, unqualified one. There is no mention of a triune god.

As a Jew, I don't need the (incorrect) Hebrew lecture.

2 Sam 13 above: We will kill more than one son (echad)
2 Sam 17: We'll kill more than one (echad)
Etc.

The triune God is CONSTANTLY mentioned along with the Shema. EVERY day, Jews pray thanking God for bread, Blessed are you O LORD OUR GOD KING OF THE UNIVERSE.

You are taking as correct doctrine what unsaved Jews teach--modern Judaism--ancient Jewish sources all show a tri-unity, and rejecting Christian sound doctrine in place since the Acts. That's not a small doctrinal problem!

 

[BilliardsBall]

All of these have been addressed already.....posts #85, #86 and #87. NONE of them say that Jesus is Almighty God.

Do you even read of the replies given to answer your erroneous accusations? Or are you so sure that you can’t be wrong that it’s OK to shut your ears? It’s your choice of course, but you can never say....”nobody told me”....

Can you explain why ALL Christians had bad doctrine in this matter until just a few years ago, and why the Bible wasn't enough to support sound doctrine even though the Bible says it is enough when led by the Spirit?

 

[cataway]

As a Jew, I don't need the (incorrect) Hebrew lecture.

2 Sam 13 above: We will kill more than one son (echad)
2 Sam 17: We'll kill more than one (echad)
Etc.

The triune God is CONSTANTLY mentioned along with the Shema. EVERY day, Jews pray thanking God for bread, Blessed are you O LORD OUR GOD KING OF THE UNIVERSE.

You are taking as correct doctrine what unsaved Jews teach--modern Judaism--ancient Jewish sources all show a tri-unity, and rejecting Christian sound doctrine in place since the Acts. That's not a small doctrinal problem!

considering that the information i posted came from a Jewish web site , maybe you do need

 

[BilliardsBall]

considering that the information i posted came from a Jewish web site , maybe you do need

You're not following, it came from a non-Messianic Jewish website. You should understand that non-Christian Jews make doctrinal arguments that you would consider heretical, other than than the argument that Jesus isn't God.

If you want to list EVERY group that says Jesus isn't God, we can include Wiccans, Atheists, etc. while excluding all of the Christians except a few cultic groups SINCE THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES.

 

[cataway]

Can you explain why ALL Christians had bad doctrine in this matter until just a few years ago, and why the Bible wasn't enough to support sound doctrine even though the Bible says it is enough when led by the Spirit?

peoples ,like your self , miss read or perhaps dont read at all what the bible does say. then they run with it .

 

[BilliardsBall]

peoples ,like your self , miss read or perhaps dont read at all what the bible does say. then they run with it .

Not like myself! Like the actual thousands of Bible translators--translating from the original Greek direct into hundreds of indigenous languages, who ALL translated John 1:1 differently.

Unfortunately, when you tell a cultist "It's not true, there are millions more true believers than you think," then tend to retreat stronger into cult life. So if my child believes differently about John 1:1, I shun/disfellowship them? Even though the witnesses "revealed" this truth about John 1:1 more than 1,700 years after God rose from the dead?

And even though hundreds of other passages in both testaments show Jesus is GOD? And none use the word "agent" but rather disdain that's he's merely man or some angel? If Hebrews says he's NOT an angel, the Angel of the Lord seen in the OT is GOD.

 

[sojourner]

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

En arche ēn ho Logos, kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon, kai Theos ēn o Logos. – John 1:1 (Greek text)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. – John 1:1 (NWT)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – John 1:1 (KJV)

(Some translations read "the Word was divine.")

“The beginning” refers to the time when God began his creative work and produced the Word. Thereafter, the Word was used by God in the creation of all other things. (John 1:2, 3) The Bible states that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” and that “by means of him all other things were created. Colossians 1:15, 16. -JW.org

Many scholars identify "logos" with God’s wisdom and reason. The logos is the expression of God, and is His communication of Himself, just as a “word” is an outward expression of a person’s thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son, and thus it is perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the “Word.” Jesus is an outward expression of God’s reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason, we call revelation “a word from God” and the Bible “the Word of God.”

If we understand that the logos is God’s expression—His plan, purposes, reason and wisdom, it is clear that they were indeed with Him “in the beginning.” Scripture says that God’s wisdom was “from the beginning” (Prov. 8:23). It was very common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. No ancient Jew reading Proverbs would think that God’s wisdom was a separate person, even though it is portrayed as one in Proverbs chapter 8. “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion."

The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”). The Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures were being translated into Sahidic Coptic (an ancient Egyptian language) during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on Greek manuscripts which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant versions. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of that time, did not have an indefinite article, Sahidic Coptic does.

ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ
ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤΕ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ
John 1:1 (Sahidic Coptic text)

Transliteration:
Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje
Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje

Literal English translation: In the beginning existed the word. And the word existed in the presence of God. And a god was the word.

The Coptic translation says ne.u.noute pe p.Saje: "the Word was a god (or, divine)," not "the Word was God." The Coptic language has both indefinite and definite articles in its grammatical structure. If the Sahidic Coptic translators held the doctrine that "the Word was God," or if the Coptic translators understood the Greek text to say "the Word was God," the Coptic language had the grammatical tools to say so. But they did not write "the Word was God." They wrote "the Word was a god."

Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE and the country was subsequently Hellenized. Greek influence had been in Egypt for some 500 years by the time those translators began their work. Likely made well before Nicea (325 CE), the Coptic text tells us how early translators interpreted John 1:1, apart from the influence of later dogma and church tradition. The Sahidic Coptic version, the earliest translation of the Greek originals into a language that contained the indefinite article, used that indefinite article at John 1:1: “the Word was a god.”

The NWT of John 1:1 is said to be an incorrect translation. Yet, in rendering John 1:1 from Greek into their own native language, the Coptic scribes came to the same understanding 1,700 years ago.

Problem is that John was written in Greek and predates its translations. Why would a translation inform the original? Second, if we take the context under consideration, it’s clearly implied that the God that’s being referred to is Almighty God. I’ve addressed this comprehensively in two other threads and was patently ignored. You people simply see what you want to, and pay little attention to linguistic, cultural, or literary criticism.

 

[sojourner]

peoples ,like your self , miss read or perhaps dont read at all what the bible does say. then they run with it .

This is a cop out. And patently untrue.

 

[cataway]

This is a cop out. And patently untrue.

will you agree that Jesus is a mediator ? in this case between God and man ?

 

[sojourner]

will you agree that Jesus is a mediator ? in this case between God and man ?

Yes. I would add also between people, and between humanity and nature.

 

[cataway]

Yes. I would add also between people, and between humanity and nature.

what is a mediator ? what does a mediator do? who can be a mediator ?

 

[The Anointed]

Not like myself! Like the actual thousands of Bible translators--translating from the original Greek direct into hundreds of indigenous languages, who ALL translated John 1:1 differently.

Unfortunately, when you tell a cultist "It's not true, there are millions more true believers than you think," then tend to retreat stronger into cult life. So if my child believes differently about John 1:1, I shun/disfellowship them? Even though the witnesses "revealed" this truth about John 1:1 more than 1,700 years after God rose from the dead?

And even though hundreds of other passages in both testaments show Jesus is GOD? And none use the word "agent" but rather disdain that's he's merely man or some angel? If Hebrews says he's NOT an angel, the Angel of the Lord seen in the OT is GOD.

John 20: 17; Jesus says to Mary Magdalen; "Go and tell my brothers, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; The Lord says to Moses----“I will send them a prophet just like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything that I command him to say. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he will speak in MY NAME, I will surely punish.”

Peter reveals who that prophet was, when in Acts 3: 12; in reference to the man Jesus, Peter says; “For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will send you a prophet just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc.”

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

Jesus, was the earthly temple which was filled with the spirit of the Lord God our savior on the day he was baptised and the spirit descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee," Or as it is said in Hebrew 5:5; "You are my son TODAY I have become your Father, and Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to Speak by our Lord God and savior.

Jesus was born the physical birth through his parents, Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios III. also called Heli, and he was born "Son of God," not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of Man, but of the spirit of the Lord, which descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

And it was through the Mouth of the MAN Jesus that the Lord said; “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our saviour) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Who do you think it was who raised that temple after it had been destroyed by the Romans, who the Jewish authorities used as their weapon to kill the Lord's chosen one?

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom I am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit and he will bring justice to every nation."

Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus, etc.

Jesus, who was given divine glory by the Lord God our savior. is now incontestably divine and sits in the throne of our Father, who is the 'MOST HIGH' to have developed within the creation, which creation is the invisible Logos made manifest, and the glorified Jesus, in Revelation 3: 21; Invites all, who like himself, who are able to win the victory over the ruler of this world, to sit beside him in the Heavenly throne of our Father.

 

[sojourner]

what is a mediator ? what does a mediator do? who can be a mediator ?

If you don’t know, why did you bring it up?

 

[cataway]

If you don’t know, why did you bring it up?

look at you thinking your self being clever .you have yet to figure out that one one can not mediate for them self . such a action would not be an act of mediation. perhaps you dont know that which is why i asked

 

[Deeje]

Can you explain why ALL Christians had bad doctrine in this matter until just a few years ago, and why the Bible wasn't enough to support sound doctrine even though the Bible says it is enough when led by the Spirit?

Of course......did you never read the parable of the wheat and the weeds? (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

"While men were sleeping"....the kind of 'sleep' that causes a loss of spiritual consciousness, the devil sowed the seeds of counterfeit Christianity in the same field as Jesus sowed the wheat. But because they looked so similar in the early stages, Jesus said not to uproot the weeds, but to let them grow together until the harvest time when the difference would be very clear and the reapers could uproot the weeds and destroy them whist at the same time gathering the wheat into his storehouse.

The true disciples of Jesus have been in existence the whole time, fighting the power of the weeds to overcome the truth. These are the ones down through history who dared to question the conduct of those who claimed to represent Christ....often they paid with their lives for doing so.....but they never went away.

All we need to know is right there in that parable. The devil has produced a counterfeit form of Christianity that was like weeds in a field. The weeds take over as any gardener knows. Given wealth and power, the church became completely corrupt.

When it was time for the harvest however, the separation would be complete with the wheat and the weeds no longer resembling each other in any way. I believe that it is almost time for the harvest to begin, and the reapers have their instructions....the weeds will be gathered first and destroyed.

This is the same as the 'sheep and the goats'.....there are only two kinds of religion in the world in this "time of the end".....the true and the false.....how can we tell the difference? One will be up to its neck in the world and its political issues, watering down the Bible's teachings so as to not lose their position in the community and currying favor with those who wish to break God's moral laws. They will also be disunited in many ways.....but the other will be at peace and in perfect harmony with each other (1 Corinthians 1:10) and staying out of the world's many divisive issues. They will be hated for imitating Jesus in his teachings and exposing religious falsehoods. They will be known for the preaching work that Jesus foretold for the last days of this present system of things. (John 15:18-21; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Revelation 18:4-8 has a command for the wheat.....a warning to "come out of" "Babylon the great".

"I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive any of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her offenses.
“Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

“To the extent that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, to the same extent give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’
“For this reason in one day her plagues will come, plague and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong." (NASB)


The first question you have to ask is who or what is "Babylon the great" and how did God's people get into her in the first place?

How would you answer?

 

[BilliardsBall]

John 20: 17; Jesus says to Mary Magdalen; "Go and tell my brothers, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; The Lord says to Moses----“I will send them a prophet just like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything that I command him to say. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he will speak in MY NAME, I will surely punish.”

Peter reveals who that prophet was, when in Acts 3: 12; in reference to the man Jesus, Peter says; “For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will send you a prophet just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc.”

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

Jesus, was the earthly temple which was filled with the spirit of the Lord God our savior on the day he was baptised and the spirit descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee," Or as it is said in Hebrew 5:5; "You are my son TODAY I have become your Father, and Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to Speak by our Lord God and savior.

Jesus was born the physical birth through his parents, Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios III. also called Heli, and he was born "Son of God," not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of Man, but of the spirit of the Lord, which descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

And it was through the Mouth of the MAN Jesus that the Lord said; “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our saviour) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Who do you think it was who raised that temple after it had been destroyed by the Romans, who the Jewish authorities used as their weapon to kill the Lord's chosen one?

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom I am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit and he will bring justice to every nation."

Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus, etc.

Jesus, who was given divine glory by the Lord God our savior. is now incontestably divine and sits in the throne of our Father, who is the 'MOST HIGH' to have developed within the creation, which creation is the invisible Logos made manifest, and the glorified Jesus, in Revelation 3: 21; Invites all, who like himself, who are able to win the victory over the ruler of this world, to sit beside him in the Heavenly throne of our Father.

I'm familiar with anti-God apologetics against Jesus. Since the Bible has no contradictions, you are forced to explain away the many, many Jesus-as-God and trinitarian verses by making outrageous claims that thousands of translators in hundreds of cultures were biased for thousands of years. So that, say, the Reformers, desperate to escape the shackles of Rome, spoke about their urgent desire to get God's Word into indigenous languages to see the common people trust Jesus for salvation. You are saying they're all wrong and that the true light is with a tiny fraction of people who will inherit Earth only, only 144,000 of them gaining Heaven, despite clear statements in Revelation, for example, that EVERY believer will be in Heaven, or other clear statements, say, in Revelation 7, that the 144,000 are JEWS.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Of course......did you never read the parable of the wheat and the weeds? (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

"While men were sleeping"....the kind of 'sleep' that causes a loss of spiritual consciousness, the devil sowed the seeds of counterfeit Christianity in the same field as Jesus sowed the wheat. But because they looked so similar in the early stages, Jesus said not to uproot the weeds, but to let them grow together until the harvest time when the difference would be very clear and the reapers could uproot the weeds and destroy them whist at the same time gathering the wheat into his storehouse.

The true disciples of Jesus have been in existence the whole time, fighting the power of the weeds to overcome the truth. These are the ones down through history who dared to question the conduct of those who claimed to represent Christ....often they paid with their lives for doing so.....but they never went away.

All we need to know is right there in that parable. The devil has produced a counterfeit form of Christianity that was like weeds in a field. The weeds take over as any gardener knows. Given wealth and power, the church became completely corrupt.

When it was time for the harvest however, the separation would be complete with the wheat and the weeds no longer resembling each other in any way. I believe that it is almost time for the harvest to begin, and the reapers have their instructions....the weeds will be gathered first and destroyed.

This is the same as the 'sheep and the goats'.....there are only two kinds of religion in the world in this "time of the end".....the true and the false.....how can we tell the difference? One will be up to its neck in the world and its political issues, watering down the Bible's teachings so as to not lose their position in the community and currying favor with those who wish to break God's moral laws. They will also be disunited in many ways.....but the other will be at peace and in perfect harmony with each other (1 Corinthians 1:10) and staying out of the world's many divisive issues. They will be hated for imitating Jesus in his teachings and exposing religious falsehoods. They will be known for the preaching work that Jesus foretold for the last days of this present system of things. (John 15:18-21; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Revelation 18:4-8 has a command for the wheat.....a warning to "come out of" "Babylon the great".

"I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive any of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her offenses.
“Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

“To the extent that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, to the same extent give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’
“For this reason in one day her plagues will come, plague and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong." (NASB)


The first question you have to ask is who or what is "Babylon the great" and how did God's people get into her in the first place?

How would you answer?

I would answer that the Whore of Babylon is Rome, who infects all cults with her sickness, chiefly, salvation by works rather than trust in God, which it seems the Watchtower promotes. Knock on doors, behave well, shun and disfellowship those who escape the cult, so that God will reward our works.

Since the Bible is clear that salvation comes through trusting JESUS and that trust in a mere man, not God, is contemptible, how would you answer?

 

[sojourner]

look at you thinking your self being clever .you have yet to figure out that one one can not mediate for them self . such a action would not be an act of mediation. perhaps you dont know that which is why i asked

When one is in right relationship, mediation is not necessary. Jesus mediates until his teachings “sink in” and we become Christ, ourselves.

perhaps you didn’t know that, which is why I asked.

 

[sojourner]

Of course......did you never read the parable of the wheat and the weeds? (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

"While men were sleeping"....the kind of 'sleep' that causes a loss of spiritual consciousness, the devil sowed the seeds of counterfeit Christianity in the same field as Jesus sowed the wheat. But because they looked so similar in the early stages, Jesus said not to uproot the weeds, but to let them grow together until the harvest time when the difference would be very clear and the reapers could uproot the weeds and destroy them whist at the same time gathering the wheat into his storehouse.

The true disciples of Jesus have been in existence the whole time, fighting the power of the weeds to overcome the truth. These are the ones down through history who dared to question the conduct of those who claimed to represent Christ....often they paid with their lives for doing so.....but they never went away.

All we need to know is right there in that parable. The devil has produced a counterfeit form of Christianity that was like weeds in a field. The weeds take over as any gardener knows. Given wealth and power, the church became completely corrupt.

When it was time for the harvest however, the separation would be complete with the wheat and the weeds no longer resembling each other in any way. I believe that it is almost time for the harvest to begin, and the reapers have their instructions....the weeds will be gathered first and destroyed.

This is the same as the 'sheep and the goats'.....there are only two kinds of religion in the world in this "time of the end".....the true and the false.....how can we tell the difference? One will be up to its neck in the world and its political issues, watering down the Bible's teachings so as to not lose their position in the community and currying favor with those who wish to break God's moral laws. They will also be disunited in many ways.....but the other will be at peace and in perfect harmony with each other (1 Corinthians 1:10) and staying out of the world's many divisive issues. They will be hated for imitating Jesus in his teachings and exposing religious falsehoods. They will be known for the preaching work that Jesus foretold for the last days of this present system of things. (John 15:18-21; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Revelation 18:4-8 has a command for the wheat.....a warning to "come out of" "Babylon the great".

"I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive any of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her offenses.
“Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

“To the extent that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, to the same extent give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’
“For this reason in one day her plagues will come, plague and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong." (NASB)


The first question you have to ask is who or what is "Babylon the great" and how did God's people get into her in the first place?

How would you answer?

Except this an inadequate exegesis of the passage, leading to an interpretation that’s faulty.

 

[cataway]

When one is in right relationship, mediation is not necessary. Jesus mediates until his teachings “sink in” and we become Christ, ourselves.

perhaps you didn’t know that, which is why I asked.

When one is in right relationship,?? there is not a man on earth that is in the right relationship.