Understanding left and right

[Revoltingest]

Yes, except that the others on the chart exist as extremes unto themselves.

Really....do you have examples of the other extremes which fall exactly on the point of a corner?

There is no such thing as a libertarian government.

Are there pure examples of any form of government?
I don't think this is an argument against using one on a chart.
And as I said, the Carnot Cycle doesn't exist in the real world, but it is useful in comparing performance of real world heat engines.

And going back to the concept of democracy, would the lack of a perfect example in the real
world mean that we shouldn't measure attempts at democracy by a theoretical standard?

But worse, I've yet to see our country move towards libertarian ideals.

Legalization of gay marriage is one example.
Improved gun rights is another.
But I never said we'd be successful in making the country more libertarian.

It's like labeling clouds on a travel map. Nobody goes there and the ideals are nebulous.

So if you dislike mine, what do you use to chart a political spectrum?

Okay, so there is no libertarian government anywhere in the world.

I never claimed there was.
Think of governments as having elements of different systems.
I prefer on with more libertarian, & less authoritarian.
We don't live in a world which offers us perfection.
It's about how we strike a balance.

I get that. But I prefer one that shows directions our country is actually moving towards, or has in the past, to a chart that shows where you would like it to go.

One could plot movement of points on the Nolan Chart.
I've long proposed the notion that political & economic evolution is a vector on it.

Show me your chart.

 

[Underhill]

Really....do you have examples of the other extremes which fall exactly on the point of a corner?

Are there pure examples of any form of government?
I don't think this is an argument against using one on a chart.
And as I said, the Carnot Cycle doesn't exist in the real world, but it is useful in comparing performance of real world heat engines.

And going back to the concept of democracy, would the lack of a perfect example in the real
world mean that we shouldn't measure attempts at democracy by a theoretical standard?

Legalization of gay marriage is one example.
Improved gun rights is another.
But I never said we'd be successful in making the country more libertarian.

So if you dislike mine, what do you use to chart a political spectrum?

I never claimed there was.
Think of governments as having elements of different systems.
I prefer on with more libertarian, & less authoritarian.
We don't live in a world which offers us perfection.
It's about how we strike a balance.

One could plot movement of points on the Nolan Chart.
I've long proposed the notion that political & economic evolution is a vector on it.

Show me your chart.

I explained my idea for a chart. Replace libertarian and authoritarian with Corporate Power and Government Power. This is my point. This idea of freedom versus control is largely a myth when it comes to government. It's relevant on social issues (like gay marriage and gun control) but not in regards to the direction of government.

Sadly we have only two parties, but in those parties there are those who prefer corporate control (hillary, bush), those who prefer government control (Bernie) and those who are somewhere in between (Obama). The only other category is the unknowns like Trump.

 

[Revoltingest]

I explained my idea for a chart. Replace libertarian and authoritarian with Corporate Power and Government Power.

This is my point. This idea of freedom versus control is largely a myth when it comes to government. It's relevant on social issues (like gay marriage and gun control) but not in regards to the direction of government.

Sadly we have only two parties, but in those parties there are those who prefer corporate control (hillary, bush), those who prefer government control (Bernie) and those who are somewhere in between (Obama). The only other category is the unknowns like Trump.

So you don't see usefulness in measuring either social or economic liberty?
I don't think the Underhill Chart will see much popularity.

 

[Underhill]

So you don't see usefulness in measuring either social or economic liberty?
I don't think the Underhill Chart will see much popularity.

I didn't say that. But the question put forth was about trying to understand the political scene. I think the 'Underhill Chart' is more relevant to our current situation and should be more of a factor.

But you are right on the popular front. People definitely seem more interested in which bathroom people use than the major political shifts taking place before our eyes. I don't get it, but it's definitely true.

 

[Flankerl]

Fun fact: Both the Republican and Democratic Party would be considered conservative Parties here.
Fun fact²: Libertarianism is weird and doesn't exist here.
Fun fact³: Liberal means Liberalism here.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fun fact²: Libertarianism is weird and doesn't exist here.

In a political climate where corruption, incompetence, needless war, victimhood contests,
loss of liberty, & busy bodies trying to micro-regulate bathroom usage is seen as normal,
I'm glad to be seen as weird.

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't say that. But the question put forth was about trying to understand the political scene. I think the 'Underhill Chart' is more relevant to our current situation and should be more of a factor.

But you are right on the popular front. People definitely seem more interested in which bathroom people use than the major political shifts taking place before our eyes. I don't get it, but it's definitely true.

A political spectrum limited to corporations v government just doesn't speak to me.

 

[Underhill]

A political spectrum limited to corporations v government just doesn't speak to me.

I know. And that is part of the problem.

I don't mean that to pick on you. But it is a much bigger problem that a good sized chunk of the country doesn't seem to take seriously.

 

[Revoltingest]

I know. And that is part of the problem.
I don't mean that to pick on you. But it is a much bigger problem that a good sized chunk of the country doesn't seem to take seriously.

We each see different problems.