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Understanding the Kuffar — Hossam and Divine Revelation

Debater Slayer

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
We have all heard and read accounts from different religions about the supposedly enlightened or divinely inspired people who preach new religions to their people and claim that they are "guiding" them to the "truth." What is also common is that we are put in the shoes of the preacher of the new religion, not the receiver thereof. Therefore, I think it is worth exploring the perspective of the disbelievers—or the kuffar, in Islamic terms.

Imagine there were a charismatic, sociable fellow named Hossam. Further imagine that Hossam one day claimed to have been visited by an entity of indescribable immensity and that he has been chosen to deliver a message to you, a message containing a new religion that is wholly different from Islam, Christianity, or whatever religion you currently follow. He claims that you have been wrong your entire life and that you are misguided and in need of deliverance from your sins.

But Hossam is an ambitious man, and he takes it a step further: he preaches that you will inevitably go to an eternal abode where you will suffer endless torture if you don't accept his new religion. Furthermore, he says that the omnipotent, omniscient deity who sent him has chosen him above all of creation, and that he is more exalted and loved by his deity than the greatest archangels.

Most people in the 21st century would laugh at Mr. Hossam; however, he believes that their laughter will only incite the wrath of his deity upon them and that they will eventually suffer greatly for their mockery of the "truth" revealed to him by his god. Most Muslims and Christians today would call Hossam a mentally ill man and may even physically hurt him and call him a blatant liar. Whether you personally agree with Hossam or not, he believes that he has the ultimate truth from the lord of all of creation. He is ready to fight wars, lose friends, and even claim that family members are in Hell according to his new religion.

If you reject Hossam as a liar or a mentally ill or unstable man, then you probably understand where the Pagan Arabs of the 7th century were coming from. The only difference between you and the 7th century kuffar, then, is that you live in an age where there is so much information and scientific knowledge that such claims of prophecy can easily be dismissed as nothing more than hoaxes or products of mental illness.

Hossam is a hypothetical fellow today, but he actually existed in the 7th century. The only difference is that his name was Muhammad.
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Debater Slayer said:
We have all heard and read accounts from different religions about the supposedly enlightened or divinely inspired people who preach new religions to their people and claim that they are "guiding" them to the "truth." What is also common is that we are put in the shoes of the preacher of the new religion, not the receiver thereof. Therefore, I think it is worth exploring the perspective of the disbelievers—or the kuffar, in Islamic terms.

Imagine there were a charismatic, sociable fellow named Hossam. Further imagine that Hossam one day claimed to have been visited by an entity of indescribable immensity and that he has been chosen to deliver a message to you, a message containing a new religion that is wholly different from Islam, Christianity, or whatever religion you currently follow. He claims that you have been wrong your entire life and that you are misguided and in need of deliverance from your sins.

But Hossam is an ambitious man, and he takes it a step further: he preaches that you will inevitably go to an eternal abode where you will suffer endless torture if you don't accept his new religion. Furthermore, he says that the omnipotent, omniscient deity who sent him has chosen him above all of creation, and that he is more exalted and loved by his deity than the greatest archangels.

Most people in the 21st century would laugh at Mr. Hossam; however, he believes that their laughter will only incite the wrath of his deity upon them and that they will eventually suffer greatly for their mockery of the "truth" revealed to him by his god. Most Muslims and Christians today would call Hossam a mentally ill man and may even physically hurt him and call him a blatant liar. Whether you personally agree with Hossam or not, he believes that he has the ultimate truth from the lord of all of creation. He is ready to fight wars, lose friends, and even claim that family members are in Hell according to his new religion.

If you reject Hossam as a liar or a mentally ill or unstable man, then you probably understand where the Pagan Arabs of the 7th century were coming from. The only difference between you and the 7th century kuffar, then, is that you live in an age where there is so much information and scientific knowledge that such claims of prophecy can easily be dismissed as nothing more than hoaxes or products of mental illness.

Hossam is a hypothetical fellow today, but he actually existed in the 7th century. The only difference is that his name was Muhammad.
Click to expand...

If he can do what Muhammed did and leads the Arab world of today from ignorance
to a powerful empire then yes i would believe him.
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Aquitaine said:
Wouldn't you be better "believing" in actual people of science, who have made major scientific advances?
Click to expand...

I know exactly how the Islamic revolution caused to a better world, the world was
in the dark ages, slavery, oppression and ignorance, there was no interest for science
and development, One man had changed the world's history from ignorance to scientific
development, they collected the ancient findings from the Greece, the Egyptians, the
Chinese and worked on it when the world had forgotten it.
 
U

Useless2015

Active Member
Debater Slayer said:
We have all heard and read accounts from different religions about the supposedly enlightened or divinely inspired people who preach new religions to their people and claim that they are "guiding" them to the "truth." What is also common is that we are put in the shoes of the preacher of the new religion, not the receiver thereof. Therefore, I think it is worth exploring the perspective of the disbelievers—or the kuffar, in Islamic terms.

Imagine there were a charismatic, sociable fellow named Hossam. Further imagine that Hossam one day claimed to have been visited by an entity of indescribable immensity and that he has been chosen to deliver a message to you, a message containing a new religion that is wholly different from Islam, Christianity, or whatever religion you currently follow. He claims that you have been wrong your entire life and that you are misguided and in need of deliverance from your sins.

But Hossam is an ambitious man, and he takes it a step further: he preaches that you will inevitably go to an eternal abode where you will suffer endless torture if you don't accept his new religion. Furthermore, he says that the omnipotent, omniscient deity who sent him has chosen him above all of creation, and that he is more exalted and loved by his deity than the greatest archangels.

Most people in the 21st century would laugh at Mr. Hossam; however, he believes that their laughter will only incite the wrath of his deity upon them and that they will eventually suffer greatly for their mockery of the "truth" revealed to him by his god. Most Muslims and Christians today would call Hossam a mentally ill man and may even physically hurt him and call him a blatant liar. Whether you personally agree with Hossam or not, he believes that he has the ultimate truth from the lord of all of creation. He is ready to fight wars, lose friends, and even claim that family members are in Hell according to his new religion.

If you reject Hossam as a liar or a mentally ill or unstable man, then you probably understand where the Pagan Arabs of the 7th century were coming from. The only difference between you and the 7th century kuffar, then, is that you live in an age where there is so much information and scientific knowledge that such claims of prophecy can easily be dismissed as nothing more than hoaxes or products of mental illness.

Hossam is a hypothetical fellow today, but he actually existed in the 7th century. The only difference is that his name was Muhammad.
Click to expand...

The pagan Arabs used to believe in a God before Muhammed s.a.w began his Prophethood. It was not something new brought to them. It was not a new religion aswell, it was the extension of other religions before.
 
Aquitaine

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
FearGod said:
I know exactly how the Islamic revolution caused to a better world, the world was
in the dark ages, slavery, oppression and ignorance, there was no interest for science
and development, One man had changed the world's history from ignorance to scientific
development, they collected the ancient findings from the Greece, the Egyptians, the
Chinese and worked on it when the world had forgotten it.
Click to expand...
The Ottoman Empire practiced slavery for nearly all of it's duration, and most of the "Golden Age" came from the Abassid Caliphate.
Every period of history has it's empires who change the balance of power and make multiple advances, still doesn't mean they're "divinely inspired".
Still, I am impressed that you're now accepting that a lot of influence was drawn from the earlier works of the Greeks etc, rather than the old "it all came from the Qur'an" approach of the past.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Aquitaine said:
The Ottoman Empire practiced slavery for nearly all of it's duration, and most of the "Golden Age" came from the Abassid Caliphate.
Every period of history has it's empires who change the balance of power and make multiple advances, still doesn't mean they're "divinely inspired".
Still, I am impressed that you're now accepting that a lot of influence was drawn from the earlier works of the Greeks etc, rather than the old "it all came from the Qur'an" approach of the past.
Click to expand...
There is some hope, I suppose.


In regards to the OP: Bravo, DS, bravo. I know I've tried to get people to imagine what was going on in the minds of those around Muhammad before his movement really got off the ground. He lived among the people of Mecca for 10 years after his "revelations" began, so they were pretty tolerant, for the most part.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Debater Slayer said:
The only difference is that his name was
Click to expand...

I think like all other religions, hossams history is mythical. More then most people attribute.

Your right today, we would not fall for the rhetoric.

Timing was everything here. A time when monotheism was spreading fast, and made more sense then polytheism.

The one all powerful deity concept had been knocking the legs out from under polytheism for a long time, and it as just a matter of time before it reached this part of the world.
 
U

Useless2015

Active Member
outhouse said:
It was not his. It was Waraka's revelations. He as just the warrior who sold it to the public with bloodshed.
Click to expand...
Do you know who Waraqa was and when he died? I don't think you do because you are talking nonsense. Does it make sense for Waraqa to write about the battle of Badr despite being dead for several years?
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Aquitaine said:
The Ottoman Empire practiced slavery for nearly all of it's duration, and most of the "Golden Age" came from the Abassid Caliphate.
Every period of history has it's empires who change the balance of power and make multiple advances, still doesn't mean they're "divinely inspired".
Still, I am impressed that you're now accepting that a lot of influence was drawn from the earlier works of the Greeks etc, rather than the old "it all came from the Qur'an" approach of the past.
Click to expand...

And which was the best than the Islamic empire in this region during the whole history.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Useless2015 said:
Do you know who Waraqa was and when he died?
Click to expand...

I know Waraka was a heretic Christian priest known to pervert the bible in Arabic.

I know Waraka is said to have taken in muhammad at age 5 wondering alone in the mounatians.

I know sections of the koran can be older then muhammad right to the exact time of Waraka

I know Waraka was muhammads cousin

I know the koran has plagiarized mythology taken from the bible, and the whole educated world agrees with me/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures
 
U

Useless2015

Active Member
outhouse said:
I know Waraka was a heretic Christian priest known to pervert the bible in Arabic.
Click to expand...

heretic Christian priest? Wasn't the whole Church led by heretics that were openly blasheming God?

I know Waraka is said to have taken in muhammad at age 5 wondering alone in the mounatians.
Click to expand...

Muhammed s.a.w also accompanied others to Syria where Christians and Jews lived.

I know sections of the koran can be older then muhammad right to the exact time of Waraka
Click to expand...

Show them with source and clearcut evidence:)

I know Waraka was muhammads cousin
Click to expand...

False. He was the cousin of his wife.

I know the koran has plagiarized mythology taken from the bible, and the whole educated world agrees with me/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures
Click to expand...

Yeah well all muslim already know that the Bible talks about Moses, Abraham. You can't be a muslim without believing in the Bible mate.....
 
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