Shantanu
Well-Known Member
Give me the verse in Gita that says that we as individuals should do anything for the welfare of the world.
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Understanding the Mahabharata
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
A vow also is a duty, a promise, and righteous people stick to their word. The famous saying about the family of Lord Rama is - "Raghukula reeti sada chali ayi, prana jaye par vachan na jai" (the tradition of the house of Raghu for all times is that one may loose his life but not his promise). King Dileepa, an ancestor of Lord Rama, came back to a lion to offer his body as he had promised to save a cow. It is for the respect of the vow of his father that Lord Rama went into exile for fourteen years. Just like in 'pashtoonwali' (the tradition of pathans), in India also a person's word is more valuable than a sojourn in heaven. Pandu, because of his illness, had gone to forest (where he later died), giving the responsibility of Hastinapura's kingdom to Dhritarashtra. It was Bhishma's vow to protect the kingdom of the descendants of Satyavati, and he did exactly that.
Lord Krishna must have said that, but if some one make a vow, then he has to fulfill it, whatever may be the consequences.
I think the question Mahabharata asks is that should a vow be kept if it means supporting unrighteousness. Krishna, at least four times during the war, expressed his willingness to break his promise to not take up arms during points of crises if things went south for the Pandavas. My understanding is that before any personal vows are followed, a person needs to see if his more fundamental duties to the world and to righteousness is being violated or not, because those are also vows he/she has taken by the very fact of his life as a person in society on the earth. Remember Yuddhisthira's vow to always speak the truth and how Krishna convinced him to speak a half-truth to defeat Drona?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That was a war and as they say 'every thing is fair in love and war'. Krishna's breaking of vow magnified Bhishma valor, same for the prowess of Drona in case of Yudhishthira's lie. I would also not stand for niceties if it was a war against my country. War sure is a dirty thing, but when it comes to that, get over it as quickly as possible. Let us be practical.
shivsomashekhar
Well-Known Member
Why should there be any message at all in the Mahabharata?
The trouble may just be the assumption that it must contain a message.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram Shantanu ji
in the third Chapter Sri Krsna speaks of Yajna , and that by following prescribed procedures the demigods become pleased and provide for the well being of all although he is speaking directly to Arjuna Krsna Clearly refers to the prosperity of all , ....
''In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Viṣṇu, and blessed them by saying, Be thou happy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you all desirable things.
The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you; thus nourishing one another, there will reign general prosperity for all.
In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajna [sacrifice], supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts, without offering them to the demigods in return, is certainly a thief.'' .....Ch , ..3 V ..10 to13
later in the same chapter on Karma yoga Krsna points out the importance of Just actions , ...
''Even kings like Janaka and others attained the perfectional stage by performance of prescribed duties. Therefore, just for the sake of educating the people in general, you should perform your work.
Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.'' ....V ..20 ..21
Krsna continues to say that he himself who need not act does so for the benifit of mankind this too is setting the right example , ....
''O son of Pṛthā, there is no work prescribed for Me within all the three planetary systems. Nor am I in want of anything, nor have I need to obtain anything—and yet I am engaged in work.
For, if I did not engage in work, O Pārtha, certainly all men would follow My path.
If I should cease to work, then all these worlds would be put to ruination. I would also be the cause of creating unwanted population, and I would thereby destroy the peace of all sentient beings.
As the ignorant perform their duties with attachment to results, similarly the learned may also act, but without attachment, for the sake of leading people on the right path.'' ....Ch ..3 V ..22 to 25
in the third Chapter Sri Krsna speaks of Yajna , and that by following prescribed procedures the demigods become pleased and provide for the well being of all although he is speaking directly to Arjuna Krsna Clearly refers to the prosperity of all , ....
''In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Viṣṇu, and blessed them by saying, Be thou happy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you all desirable things.
The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you; thus nourishing one another, there will reign general prosperity for all.
In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajna [sacrifice], supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts, without offering them to the demigods in return, is certainly a thief.'' .....Ch , ..3 V ..10 to13
later in the same chapter on Karma yoga Krsna points out the importance of Just actions , ...
''Even kings like Janaka and others attained the perfectional stage by performance of prescribed duties. Therefore, just for the sake of educating the people in general, you should perform your work.
Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.'' ....V ..20 ..21
Krsna continues to say that he himself who need not act does so for the benifit of mankind this too is setting the right example , ....
''O son of Pṛthā, there is no work prescribed for Me within all the three planetary systems. Nor am I in want of anything, nor have I need to obtain anything—and yet I am engaged in work.
For, if I did not engage in work, O Pārtha, certainly all men would follow My path.
If I should cease to work, then all these worlds would be put to ruination. I would also be the cause of creating unwanted population, and I would thereby destroy the peace of all sentient beings.
As the ignorant perform their duties with attachment to results, similarly the learned may also act, but without attachment, for the sake of leading people on the right path.'' ....Ch ..3 V ..22 to 25
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
'Learn from history', people say. Whether there was a message in Mahabharata or not, we can still benefit from a story. The Panchatantra story of the hare and the tortoise tells that we must not give up and persevere, and not take it lightly at anytime. It is a good lesson even for cricket batsmen.
Chapter 3 verse 25
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-03-25.html
Chapter 3 verse 20
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-03-20.html
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Karna is another story in Mahabharata. Loyalty to his friend, obligations, right or wrong do not matter. In Ramayana, we have Marichi and Kumbhakarna. They knew very well who was right and who was wrong, but loyalty made them fight supporting Ravana. It did not matter if it meant their death. Asura King Bali, he had vowed to give what the brahmin (Lord Vishnu as Vamana) could measure in three steps, and he gave it even if it meant his body. A vow is a vow.
You see, there is a story in Rajasthan. A Rajput (member of the warrior clan) came to a merchant and asked for a big loan. The merchant asked him as to what he will give as surety. The Rajput gentleman gave a strand from his whisker. Satisfied, the merchant gave him the loan. Seeing that, another person came to him and asked for a loan. This man also gave a strand from his whisker. The merchant looked at the strand and said that it was a bit crooked. Could the person give him another strand? The man hastily plucked another strand and produced it before the merchant. The merchant refused the loan saying that 'if you yourself do not respect the strand from your whisker, I do not believe that you will ever return my money'.
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Shantanu
Well-Known Member
I don't know if God wants us to always consider the welfare of the world but I am sure that if you do things in the firm belief that you are dedicating your work to Him and surrendering to Him at the same time then the right actions will follow. That is how I understand karma yoga. So I do not know if Gita is right about this. Sorry @ratikala if this seems to be at some variance to the teachings of Vaishnavas.
Karna followed his own understanding of Dharma heroically. But, when Krishna asked him (twice I think) to abandon Duryodhana and come to the side of Pandavas, was he asking Karna to do something unrighteous? Do you think Yuyutsu was wrong in going over to the side of Pandavas? It would be interesting to look at the dialogues and investigate.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram Shantanu ji
two persons Have quoted verses fron the asmae chapter where in Krsna Clearly says'' the wise being un attatched should act desiring to benifit the whole world '' or in the other translation given '' similarly the learned may also act, but without attachment, for the sake of leading people on the right path.'' ....Ch ..3 V ..22 to 25
Yes , suerly we should surrender all works , this leads to non attatchment , ...having accheived non attatchment or even whilst endeavoring to attain non attatchment , we should still do our best to work for the welfare of all living beings , .....
translations may vary a little but look at the meaning rather than the words , ....the first stage is allways to remove our ignorance , to remove our strong sence of self which prevents us from realising the needs of others , ...thus whilst embroiled in worldliness we are lgnorant of the Wishes of Bhagavan Sri Krsna that we should act in an exelplary manner so as to set an example to others , as surely no Vaisnava will contradict another where this is concerned , If you see a contradiction between schools regarding these instructions please let me know , if it is possible l will try to reconcile your doubts , ....
Prabhu ji I assure you the Gita is faltless , ...it is more often than not our comprehension that fails us , .....
two persons Have quoted verses fron the asmae chapter where in Krsna Clearly says'' the wise being un attatched should act desiring to benifit the whole world '' or in the other translation given '' similarly the learned may also act, but without attachment, for the sake of leading people on the right path.'' ....Ch ..3 V ..22 to 25
Yes , suerly we should surrender all works , this leads to non attatchment , ...having accheived non attatchment or even whilst endeavoring to attain non attatchment , we should still do our best to work for the welfare of all living beings , .....
translations may vary a little but look at the meaning rather than the words , ....the first stage is allways to remove our ignorance , to remove our strong sence of self which prevents us from realising the needs of others , ...thus whilst embroiled in worldliness we are lgnorant of the Wishes of Bhagavan Sri Krsna that we should act in an exelplary manner so as to set an example to others , as surely no Vaisnava will contradict another where this is concerned , If you see a contradiction between schools regarding these instructions please let me know , if it is possible l will try to reconcile your doubts , ....
Prabhu ji I assure you the Gita is faltless , ...it is more often than not our comprehension that fails us , .....
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
Did not Buddha develop some grandiose ideas about how to benefit the whole world (eradicate suffering) and so is regarded as one of the dasavatars? - who cares for his ideas now?
Similarly, look what happened to Mahatma Gandhi - murdered by his own Hindu brother and see how Muslims and Hindus are fighting each other even today.
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A significant fraction of the world including me cares about Buddha's ideas, in the East as well as in the West. I have myself attended Dalai Lama's talk, practiced Buddhist meditation and have many Buddhist friends. I am also a strong admirer of Gandhi whose influence in modern India and the world is extremely significant. You really picked the wrong examples for trying to show working for the good of the world is fruitless. And even it is, what does it matter. Persons like them work not for fruits but because it is the right thing to do.
Namaste,
What Shantanu ji says here --- yes, this is how it is, and yes, that is Him. This is how KRshNa is. HOWEVER, what attracts Him at first is the righteousness, straightforwardness, honesty, honest analysis of situations, and some (relatively) extraordinary undertaking which may be a significant challenge for the human, done for the sake of dharma (because it is the right thing to do -- even if it may be for the kalyAN of just one being, or one environment, or one family). PLUS -- that the soul is seeking Someone who understands --- knowingly or unknowingly, conciously or subconsciously --- "there must be at least one that understands without explanation" -- that definition fits ParamAtmA, ParaBramhan' PArameshwar, BhagavAn.
The pAnDava were such beings -- so Shri Hari wanted to protect them, not just for their sake but for the sake of justice, dharma, Truth. Now, in case of Mahabharat is is certainly not as simple as that, because, GhanashyAm Who is NArAyaN Hari always undertakes multi-dimensional tasks, killing multiple birds in one stone for the Universal balance, and the Mahabharat as a phenomenon is certainly not linear or simple.
--- > Then, once He takes the soul under His wing, He pampers them.
See, every bhAvanA (feeling/impulse) of BhagavAn and every gesture of His, is transcendental and immensely more beautiful, graceful, gracious and magnanimous than what humans know of. Once my Dearest KRshNa takes the jiva under His wing, He is dead serious about the devotee's well-being, and He pays attention to the being's life in astonishing detail. BhagavAn's promise, even a casual statement - is a serious commitment for Him.
The being is very very dear to Him. He has no ego of His own, and His happiness lies in your happiness.
" TerA sukh -- MerA sukh, terA dukh, MerA dukh."
Merely watching the devotee intimately, in distress, brings nirguN tears to His nirguN Lotus Eyes. So you see even remembering some past injustice, sorrow, is a big blunder because it would bring tears to His Divine Eyes, since nothing is hidden from Him, but He pays closer attention to the ones He has 'in the basket' for now. His patience is astonishing and difficult to understand.
What makes Him stay steadfast with the one He picks up from the scorching desert of the material world? Who is He answerable to ? NO ONE. Except Himself. WHY DOES HE NOT ASK FOR OR TAKE A BREAK? WHY DOES HE WORK SO HARD TO BRING THE ONE HE PICKED FROM THE HOPELESS DESERT TO REALIZATION OF WHAT NEEDS TO BE REALIZED? AND REPEAT THAT WITH EACH ONE IN THE BASKET?
He watches the soul get distracted to schools of thought and "should do s" while all He asks for is "Just stay with Me, and stay happy - because I know that makes you happy"
Such diligence. Such love, prema bhAv, unwavering trust, patience, the only true friend ~ S U H R U D ~
Yes, He wants you to follow karma yoga - but for your own good as well as the collective good of all that are/is His, because HE lives in that heart! It is HIS! You are more His than your own! ("you" is just to illustrate as in "one" ).
First He wants you to fasten your own seat belt! Wear your own oxygen mask! He cannot bear to see you struggle, walk tight ropes with deep sea on one side and fire on the other, get squished from all sides no matter what you do or don't , and when all you really want to do is live peacefully, harm no one (you are so conscientious that even if you hurt someones feelings unintentionally or by their misunderstanding, you find it hard to sleep that night), stay out of the way, but expect not to be harmed and hope not to become the punchbag.
Lok kalyAN, jagat uddhAr (good of the world) is optional, and voluntary. The Lord would never deliberate , impose or dictate such a task even with the slightest gesture unless He thinks the soul is ready to do this. He takes things up Himself, never disturbs your will. He may bring you to a certain consciousness which may make you voluntarily dedicate your life to His cause , but He will always respect your deepest wish.
~ Shree Krshna Govinda Hare ~ Mukund Murare ~
he nAtha nArAyaNa vAsudevA ~
praNAm
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Another point -- by the way the first thing that occured to me (as to everyone else here) is the verses in Chapter 3 of BG that explain the 'saMsAra chakra' - the wheel of life -- that in order for it to move on, each being is responsible -- this is kartavya -- duty, and this falls back into the range of sva-dharma (one's responsibility, duty and calling) towards the universe. This is automatically taken care of by virtue of righteousness, conscience, compassion.
The automatic gestures that simply happen - are not necessarily DONE -- by such a being, especially a human in this case, take care of this wheel of nature.
Only the ones who go against it are the problem. Causes Environmental pollution at all levels.
Would your hand not automatically move to help an elderly, or a fellow being stuck on the road with a flat tire? Would your subconscious mind not automatically keep food cans/money/old clothes in stock for poor and homeless you come across? Would you not stay up an hour or two at night to write an e-message to a stranger in emotional pain -- showing them the light, enlightening them with whatever little you know?
It is done because it comes from within. All this comes automatically and INVoluntarily as one's consciousness rises higher and higher. Therefore, it is not necessary for ParamAtmA to make that a rule in scripture. Raising oneself in itself creates the required, albeit contagious, harmony ans symphony that spreads.
Behold the smartness of Shri Hari in not bothering to delegate world welfare to humans. He knows the key that unlocks the door and sets things in motion. He knew what would make the ancient Rshis tick. They could not sit still without thinking of the whole world. But first -- to find the key and unlock the door.
He Who juggles the Truth to maintain promises in a multidimensional existence [VAchaspatI],
That Govinda I worship
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi ~
The automatic gestures that simply happen - are not necessarily DONE -- by such a being, especially a human in this case, take care of this wheel of nature.
Only the ones who go against it are the problem. Causes Environmental pollution at all levels.
Would your hand not automatically move to help an elderly, or a fellow being stuck on the road with a flat tire? Would your subconscious mind not automatically keep food cans/money/old clothes in stock for poor and homeless you come across? Would you not stay up an hour or two at night to write an e-message to a stranger in emotional pain -- showing them the light, enlightening them with whatever little you know?
It is done because it comes from within. All this comes automatically and INVoluntarily as one's consciousness rises higher and higher. Therefore, it is not necessary for ParamAtmA to make that a rule in scripture. Raising oneself in itself creates the required, albeit contagious, harmony ans symphony that spreads.
Behold the smartness of Shri Hari in not bothering to delegate world welfare to humans. He knows the key that unlocks the door and sets things in motion. He knew what would make the ancient Rshis tick. They could not sit still without thinking of the whole world. But first -- to find the key and unlock the door.
He Who juggles the Truth to maintain promises in a multidimensional existence [VAchaspatI],
That Govinda I worship
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi ~
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Shantanu
Well-Known Member
I feel very happy that someone else has experienced Sri Krishna in the way I have.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
The only right thing to do is to take care of oneself and leave everyone alone to find their own paths in life, not impose your grandiose ideas that do not work on all individuals because they have different guna-complexes, capiche?
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While the Vaidika mArga is more complete and reveals BhagavAn (theistically), I would not judge the actions of masters and make generalizations on such a large scale. There are those who were benefited. As you said, those whose guNas were suitable for that path. The original intended dhyAna of Siddhartha Gautam Buddha is not really different from dhyAna as per VedAnta, and it is nice to be in that kind of Samadhi at times .... but then it is nicer to be at Shri KRshNa's side (at His Lotus Feet) once out of it. The 5-fold path (satya,ahimsa,dharma...) is nothing new to Hinduism but it was a good simplification for the citizens there at the time in the common Pali language, and then again -- the ascetic limbs of the practice were not meant for gRhastha (householders). It is all about Desha-kAla-pAtra (place, era/time, candidates)
Bhagavad GeetA is correct. It is more about how you understand the verses. Please see my post # 36 about the samsara chakra in Bh GitA Chap 3 and perhaps you will agree.
ekam shAstram devakIputragItameko devo devakIputra eva |
eko mantrastasya nAmAni yAni karmApyekam tasya devasya sevA ||
--- GItA MahAtmya shloka 7, Mahabharat
One and only scripture i.e. Bhagvad GItA by Son of DevakI (KRshNa)
One and only God i.e. Son of DevakI (KRshNa)
One and only mantra - that of KRshNa
One and only deed i.e. service to the Deva (KRshNa)
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I am not a Mahabharata pandit. I think both the cases indicate how humans will have different views of the same situation and act in different ways. In Ramayana, Kumbhakarna and Vibhishan acted in different ways. Same for banishment of Mother Sita. Some will say it was correct (responsibility of a king to set an example), others will say it was abandonment.