Ungodly

[TransmutingSoul]

I put this in the discussion section as to enable people of faith in God to put views forward, as I see it is a subject that needs clarity. It also follows on from a post "I would rather be Dead'.

In the various Holy Writings in various ways there is the warning for a believer to eshew friendship with the ungodly. These are two passages from the Baha'i Writings;

"The company of the ungodly increaseth sorrow, whilst fellowship with the righteous cleanseth the rust from off the heart." Hidden Words Persian 56

Another

"Beware! Walk not with the ungodly and seek not fellowship with him, for such companionship turneth the radiance of the heart into infernal fire." Hidden Words Persian 57

The two hidden words above I see are reflecting the essence of past scriptures.

This is one explanation on who are the ungodly.

"In the passage 'eschew all fellowship with the ungodly, 'Bahá’u’lláh means that we should shun the company of those who disbelieve in God and are wayward. The word 'ungodly' is a reference to such perverse people. The words 'Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved ones', should flee from the enemies of God and instead seek the fellowship of His lovers." Shoghi Effendi

They are challenging statements and thus the discussion is,

"As a person with Faith in God, what do you understand on this subject, from your Holy Writings?

@Deeje, I see the JW have many thoughts on this subject.

Regards Tony

 

[Terry Sampson]

My problem with both is that if I followed them, I wouldn't have anyone to talk to, and anybody else who follows them wouldn't talk to me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My problem with both is that if I followed them, I wouldn't have anyone to talk to, and anybody else who follows them wouldn't talk to me.

Yes that is the dilemma I see.

Thus I also see that a balance must also be given in scripture. It is the balance I hope this OP will explore.

Regards Tony

 

[Neutral Name]

I put this in the discussion section as to enable people of faith in God to put views forward, as I see it is a subject that needs clarity. It also follows on from a post "I would rather be Dead'.

In the various Holy Writings in various ways there is the warning for a believer to eshew friendship with the ungodly. These are two passages from the Baha'i Writings;

"The company of the ungodly increaseth sorrow, whilst fellowship with the righteous cleanseth the rust from off the heart." Hidden Words Persian 56

Another

"Beware! Walk not with the ungodly and seek not fellowship with him, for such companionship turneth the radiance of the heart into infernal fire." Hidden Words Persian 57

The two hidden words above I see are reflecting the essence of past scriptures.

This is one explanation on who are the ungodly.

"In the passage 'eschew all fellowship with the ungodly, 'Bahá’u’lláh means that we should shun the company of those who disbelieve in God and are wayward. The word 'ungodly' is a reference to such perverse people. The words 'Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved ones', should flee from the enemies of God and instead seek the fellowship of His lovers." Shoghi Effendi

They are challenging statements and thus the discussion is,

"As a person with Faith in God, what do you understand on this subject, from your Holy Writings?

@Deeje, I see the JW have many thoughts on this subject.

Regards Tony

The Christian Bible states in many places not to angry toward those who have done you wrong and to help others including prisoners and that almost any sin can be forgiven but it does have this passage and a few like it:

2 Timothy 3:1-5 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

So, I am not sure what all religions say but, although I am far from perfect and do become angry at times, my atheist son tells me that this is wrong to do and that a spiritual person should never behave this way. I would think that it is correct to only be loving but that humans will not always be able to stop their emotions because humans are not perfect like God(s).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My problem with both is that if I followed them, I wouldn't have anyone to talk to, and anybody else who follows them wouldn't talk to me.

That was the other thing I was considering, that in some way we are all ungodly. Has a political correct world so changed our mindset, that in one way or another, we are not staying firm in Gods Laws?

Thus in a way we can also eshew fellowship with our ungodly self.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Christian Bible states in many places not to angry toward those who have done you wrong and to help others including prisoners and that almost any sin can be forgiven but it does have this passage and a few like it:

2 Timothy 3:1-5 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

So, I am not sure what all religions say but, although I am far from perfect and do become angry at times, my atheist son tells me that this is wrong to do and that a spiritual person should never behave this way. I would think that it is correct to only be loving but that humans will not always be able to stop their emotions because humans are not perfect like God(s).

I also see this is a great challenge of self. We can only first become godly ourselves, we can not change another, but by example. The bible says that as to pull the plank from our own eye before removing the splinter from anothers eye.

Regards Tony

 

[The Reverend Bob]

'Bahá’u’lláh means that we should shun the company of those who disbelieve in God and are wayward.

Who is more "ungodly" the person who has perverse idolatrous belief in God giving to him by some "prophet" out of many contradictory prophets or the person who chooses not to be an idolater by having no belief in God at all?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who is more "ungodly" the person who has perverse idolatrous belief in God giving to him by some "prophet" out of many contradictory prophets or the person who chooses not to be an idolater by having no belief in God at all?

I see that is the question we must ask ourselves. I see we can only control what is Godly within our own self.

I see these passages are aimed at spritual nourishment and each would have to find a balance. Some are weak and some are strong. The weak will be easily turned away from what is Godly, long time exposure can eat away at the vitality of the strong.

Regards Tony

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I see that is the question we must ask ourselves. I see we can only control what is Godly within our own self.

I see these passages are aimed at spritual nourishment and each would have to find a balance. Some are weak and some are strong. The weak will be easily turned away from what is Godly, long time exposure can eat away at the vitality of the strong.

Regards Tony

Both weak and strong theists are given to idolatry, the strong theist is a bit more of an idolater than the weak one. You are all still indulging in idolatry once you start thinking that you and your religion get to define what God is or isn't. You either believe in your version of God and therefore commit idolatry or you don't believe in any version of God and commit no idolatry.

 

[Deeje]

@Deeje, I see the JW have many thoughts on this subject.

Well, the Bible has much to say on this topic. We just follow what it tells us to do.

Jesus is of course, our role model.....so how did he treat those whom he considered to be "ungodly"?

The religious leaders of the day made it clear that they would have nothing to do with those whom they considered "ungodly" "sinners"....they repeatedly criticised Jesus for keeping company with those sorts of people. So why the disparity? What did Jesus see in people that the Pharisees failed to see? Potential.

1 Samuel 16:7 highlights this difference.....

"....For the way man sees is not the way God sees, because mere man sees what appears to the eyes, but Jehovah sees into the heart.”

There it is.....outward appearances can be deceptive.

Jesus did not keep company with "sinners" because he particularly enjoyed their friendship as such, but to offer them God's forgiveness and a way to come into a relationship with him, with a clean conscience, having their past sins forgiven. He forged his close friendships with those who truly loved God and did not offend him by their lifestyle.

Sin is in us from birth, we have no control over that, but those who loved the sin and didn't want to change, would not have responded to Jesus' encouragement, they would have dismissed his words like water off a duck's back. (Just like today) However there were those who were lost in their sin but feeling like they were trapped, given the impression that they were forever alienated from God, with no way out. Jesus' words of hope touched their heart and they stayed and listened and found a way out of their despair and gained hope of connecting with a loving Father who just wanted his children to obey him so that he could forgive them, embrace them and teach them a better way.

JW's like to take the same attitude. When we preach, we try never to judge anyone on outward appearance or lifestyle, because neither of those things is a true indication of a person's heart potential.
Many have responded to the Christian message and left terrible lifestyles behind to build a strong relationship with God through the mission of his son and the preaching of his disciples. (Matthew 24:14)

BUT.....there is a warning about "fellowship" with those who are comfortable in their sin....those who flout the laws of God and have no intention to change their ways.

Paul's words to the Corinthians.....(1 Corinthians 15:33-34)
"Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. 34 Come to your senses in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I am speaking to move you to shame."

If we "associate" with people who "practice" sin because they have no love for God, then our own sinful inclinations can be fostered, and our good intentions stifled....our spirituality could be seriously compromised. We can have "useful habits" "spoiled". The warning is "do not be misled".....do we always know when that is happening? It is gradual and subtle.

JW's are often criticised for the fact that we will refuse association with former members who have been expelled from the congregation. The fact that these ones have been expelled in the first place means that they show no remorse, nor do they repent of their failure to uphold Jehovah's standards. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

All are well aware of the consequences of making a dedication to God and then failing to uphold it. To complain about the penalty after one has committed the crime is often typical of the response in some. They can get angry and vengeful....then they start complaining about how unfair it all is. They can become morose and depressed that they can't have what they formerly took for granted. Yet they did this to themselves.

The fact is, if you don't do the crime, you don't have to do the time. If you repent, there is forgiveness, none who repent are disfellowshipped.

What is punishment intended to do? Why do we discipline our children? Because we hate them? Or because we love them and want them to learn a lesson?

"And you have entirely forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; 6 for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son. 7 You need to endure as part of your discipline. God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 But if you have not all shared in receiving this discipline, you are really illegitimate children, and not sons. 9 Furthermore, our human fathers used to discipline us, and we gave them respect. Should we not more readily submit ourselves to the Father of our spiritual life and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time according to what seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit so that we may partake of his holiness. 11 True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:6-11)

Those who, like the Prodigal Son, come to their senses, and make their way home with a humble attitude are embraced by their Father and the whole family.
Those who don't, demonstrate their true personality by trying to get even, slandering our brotherhood because they didn't get their way, or any of the justification that they wanted to apply to their conduct.

The door is always open for repentant ones, but many choose to stand outside the door protesting.....it's rather sad really. Ex's very rarely will paint their former partners in a good light. What happens when you hear all the bad stuff from an ex? You tend to believe them. So be it. People will believe whatever they wish.

That's it....another novel.....sorry.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, the Bible has much to say on this topic. We just follow what it tells us to do.

Jesus is of course, our role model.....so how did he treat those whom he considered to be "ungodly"?

The religious leaders of the day made it clear that they would have nothing to do with those whom they considered "ungodly" "sinners"....they repeatedly criticised Jesus for keeping company with those sorts of people. So why the disparity? What did Jesus see in people that the Pharisees failed to see? Potential.

1 Samuel 16:7 highlights this difference.....

"....For the way man sees is not the way God sees, because mere man sees what appears to the eyes, but Jehovah sees into the heart.”

There it is.....outward appearances can be deceptive.

Jesus did not keep company with "sinners" because he particularly enjoyed their friendship as such, but to offer them God's forgiveness and a way to come into a relationship with him, with a clean conscience, having their past sins forgiven. He forged his close friendships with those who truly loved God and did not offend him by their lifestyle.

Sin is in us from birth, we have no control over that, but those who loved the sin and didn't want to change, would not have responded to Jesus' encouragement, they would have dismissed his words like water off a duck's back. (Just like today) However there were those who were lost in their sin but feeling like they were trapped, given the impression that they were forever alienated from God, with no way out. Jesus' words of hope touched their heart and they stayed and listened and found a way out of their despair and gained hope of connecting with a loving Father who just wanted his children to obey him so that he could forgive them, embrace them and teach them a better way.

JW's like to take the same attitude. When we preach, we try never to judge anyone on outward appearance or lifestyle, because neither of those things is a true indication of a person's heart potential.
Many have responded to the Christian message and left terrible lifestyles behind to build a strong relationship with God through the mission of his son and the preaching of his disciples. (Matthew 24:14)

BUT.....there is a warning about "fellowship" with those who are comfortable in their sin....those who flout the laws of God and have no intention to change their ways.

Paul's words to the Corinthians.....(1 Corinthians 15:33-34)
"Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. 34 Come to your senses in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I am speaking to move you to shame."

If we "associate" with people who "practice" sin because they have no love for God, then our own sinful inclinations can be fostered, and our good intentions stifled....our spirituality could be seriously compromised. We can have "useful habits" "spoiled". The warning is "do not be misled".....do we always know when that is happening? It is gradual and subtle.

JW's are often criticised for the fact that we will refuse association with former members who have been expelled from the congregation. The fact that these ones have been expelled in the first place means that they show no remorse, nor do they repent of their failure to uphold Jehovah's standards. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

All are well aware of the consequences of making a dedication to God and then failing to uphold it. To complain about the penalty after one has committed the crime is often typical of the response in some. They can get angry and vengeful....then they start complaining about how unfair it all is. They can become morose and depressed that they can't have what they formerly took for granted. Yet they did this to themselves.

The fact is, if you don't do the crime, you don't have to do the time. If you repent, there is forgiveness, none who repent are disfellowshipped.

What is punishment intended to do? Why do we discipline our children? Because we hate them? Or because we love them and want them to learn a lesson?

"And you have entirely forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; 6 for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son. 7 You need to endure as part of your discipline.* God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 But if you have not all shared in receiving this discipline, you are really illegitimate children, and not sons. 9 Furthermore, our human fathers used to discipline us, and we gave them respect. Should we not more readily submit ourselves to the Father of our spiritual life and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time according to what seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit so that we may partake of his holiness. 11 True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:6-11)

Those who, like the Prodigal Son, come to their senses, and make their way home with a humble attitude are embraced by their Father and the whole family.
Those who don't, demonstrate their true personality by trying to get even, slandering our brotherhood because they didn't get their way, or any of the justification that they wanted to apply to their conduct.

The door is always open for repentant ones, but many choose to stand outside the door protesting.....it's rather sad really. Ex's very rarely will paint their former partners in a good light. What happens when you hear all the bad stuff from an ex? You tend to believe them. So be it. People will believe whatever they wish.

That's it....another novel.....sorry.

I have in past talks with my friend seen that the JW have a good grasp of this concept and I agree we are no judge of the heart.

As such, I see that is the balance. We can judge no soul, but we can judge the actions against the law and the morality we are exorted to portray in our daily lives. Thus we are to lead by example and not participate in what has been shown by God to be ungodly.

That is also a tricky balance, who is it that has interpreted what God has shown us, we must alao consider if man has played a part in that understanding.

Regards Tony

 

[sun rise]

There are some people who are really negative - who might even be called psychic vampires becase they suck the positive energy from people. I would try to stay away from that kind of person if I had a choice. I would not use "ungodly" but rather use "negative". There's a song that a friend wrote that expresses this. My memory might not be 100% but it tells me the lyrics include: "Those who would deny the truth you feel who would argue down the dawn, step round them and go on".

I would not classify atheists, addicts, criminals etc as that kind of person necessarily. The truly negative can be found in the rich or poor, atheist or so-called believer, criminal or law abiding and so forth.

 

[Maponos]

There is a sense of impurity and impiety that must be avoided in polytheistic religions, but there isn’t much actual dogma.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There are some people who are really negative - who might even be called psychic vampires becase they suck the positive energy from people. I would try to stay away from that kind of person if I had a choice. I would not use "ungodly" but rather use "negative". There's a song that a friend wrote that expresses this. My memory might not be 100% but it tells me the lyrics include: "Those who would deny the truth you feel who would argue down the dawn, step round them and go on".

I would not classify atheists, addicts, criminals etc as that kind of person necessarily. The truly negative can be found in the rich or poor, atheist or so-called believer, criminal or law abiding and so forth.

I see that is sound reasoning.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think the distinction should be made between association and affiliation.

Not to affiliate with those involved in behaviour which is ungodly. Things that come to mind are gambling casinos, night clubs, prostitution, and any sort of criminal behaviour.

I don’t think it means we must shun anyone just not get caught up in bad company. But the definition of ungodly I believe is best determined by the Manifestation of God as His knowledge is true knowledge whereas our knowledge is speculative, interpretative, finite and limited.

Some religious leaders tell their followers not to mix with other religionists and to see them as ungodly but the Manifestation of God tells us to mix with the followers of all religions in a spirit of love and fellowship.

So me personally I would not rely on my own imperfect judgement of what is ungodly but instead on what the Manifestations of God have said.

In another passage Baha’u’llah has said we can enjoy the benefits of life as long as it doesn’t corrupt us and ruin us spiritually and cause us to become wicked and cruel or oppressive and a cause of suffering.

There is much to explore on this topic but I wouldn’t be judging anyone here as ungodly because it is not my call to make. But if I bumped into a drug courier and he offered me a cut to sell drugs that I would consider very ungodly and have no association with such a person.

I think it’s common sense to a degree but the Manifestation of God - I would be consulting what He says as He possesses true wisdom in these matters.

 

[Quintessence]

There aren't really "holy writings" in contemporary Paganism in the sense that there are in Abrahamic religions, but the religious movement is characterized by its pluralism regardless. There is no sort of teaching that states we must eschew certain types of company because of theological differences. What gods you worship (or don't) is irrelevant when it comes to keeping company.