Universal health care would be a good thing

[Reverend Rick]

O.K., Rick, here's my question for you:

Why do you think the U.S. experience would be substantially different from all the other countries that have some form of Universal Health Care? What I mean is, every country that has it spends less on health care than we do, and gets better results. But you keep saying that if we had it, we would spend more than we do now (15% of our GDP!!!) and the quality would go down. Do you think Americans are less competent than Dutch or Australian people?

First off, you have to decide who is going to receive coverage. If you say everyone, just how many everyone's is there? I can see folks crossing the borders by the millions. I don't believe we are less competent, I believe the Dutch or Australians know how many folks are in their country and what their initial expenses will be.

In a nut shell, the difference between us and other countries is, they have sovereign borders and we do not.

 

[Autodidact]

Not exactly. I don't believe it will save us that much because although each person will have less spent on them, too many people will tax the system but not pay the taxes.

You're not following the math. Countries with universal coverage are paying 50-60% of what we're paying per person. Not per covered person, but per human being who lives in their country. We're paying about half as much per human being, covered or uncovered, who lives in our country. Per covered person, they are spending more like 35-40% of what we are. So why again wouldn't the U.S. realize the same savings as other countries? Countries with universal coverage are paying less in taxes alone than we are. That's right, here in the U.S., to cover 85% of the population, we pay more in government spending than countries that provide universal coverage. Then we pay again for our health insurance (hundreds of dollars per covered person each month) then AGAIN for what isn't covered. Amazing, isn't it? Why would you want to keep wasting money like that? Are you sure you're really a free-market conservative? You seem to be asking for bigger, more expensive government. Why?

 

[Autodidact]

First off, you have to decide who is going to receive coverage. If you say everyone, just how many everyone's is there? I can see folks crossing the borders by the millions. I don't believe we are less competent, I believe the Dutch or Australians know how many folks are in their country and what their initial expenses will be.

In a nut shell, the difference between us and other countries is, they have sovereign borders and we do not.

So your suspicion is that illegal immigrants will use the system? Why would this happen any more than it is right now? How would illegal immigrants get access to the system? Also you don't seem familiar with Europe's immigration problem, which is as bad as ours, just coming from a different place. I don't know whether you've noticed, but folks already crossed the border by the millions. It's too late to close that barn door; the horses are already out.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Lets see If I can top the barn door analogy.

I am serving fillet on the grill for 100 of my invited guests. There is a group of people outside my fence who are smelling the grill cooking who have not ate in a week. You tell me there is a good deal on a different cut of meat and I could save a bundle and the meat is delicious.

We decide to take advantage of the great deal and invite everyone to the cookout who is standing outside as well. We will spend less and everyone can eat.

When my guests arive, there is a long line to the grill and nothing left to eat.

 

[Autodidact]

Lets see If I can top the barn door analogy.

I am serving fillet on the grill for 100 of my invited guests. There is a group of people outside my fence who are smelling the grill cooking who have not ate in a week. You tell me there is a good deal on a different cut of meat and I could save a bundle and the meat is delicious.

We decide to take advantage of the great deal and invite everyone to the cookout who is standing outside as well. We will spend less and everyone can eat.

When my guests arive, there is a long line to the grill and nothing left to eat.

Who are the people outside the fence? Americans without health care?

Rick: the math is not complicated. 47 countries are serving steak to every inhabitant, while Americans are spending twice as much to serve turkey dogs to 85% of ours. Why? And why not cut our cost by half and serve everyone steak?

Why do you think our experience would be dramatically different from all the countries that have already done it? Wouldn't their experience be the best possible evidence of what it would look like? Guess what, not one of them wants to go back to a system like ours. Zero. While around 65% of Americans are dissatisfied enough to want a single-payer system.

Is your main concern really that we would be flooded with illegal immigrants wanting to take advantage of our superior health care system? So we need to make sure that our health care system sucks rope, so that no one else will want to use it either???

 

[Reverend Rick]

So we need to make sure that our health care system sucks rope, so that no one else will want to use it either???

Text book strawman. :sorry1:

We have doctors who come here from around the world. Why is that?

 

[Willamena]

We have doctors who come here from around the world. Why is that?

$$$$$ *ding**ding**ding**ding*


(Whatever they're willing to pay to get healthy.)

 

[Nemesis_of_3vil]

autodidact, your missing the point, we pay more because we have the best doctors. We do, you pay for what you get.

P.S. Canada's healthcare sucks badly, and we are suppose to be like them?

 

[Alceste]

autodidact, your missing the point, we pay more because we have the best doctors. We do, you pay for what you get.

P.S. Canada's healthcare sucks badly, and we are suppose to be like them?

Go back to the start of the thread and read some posts. You've already been proven wrong - no point going through it all again.

 

[Reverend Rick]

$$$$$ *ding**ding**ding**ding*


(Whatever they're willing to pay to get healthy.)

Under a NHP that saves tons of money according to Autodidact, someone comes out holding the short stick. She says I'm not following the math. More people will be seen and it will cost less.

Doctors will make less. That is the bottom line. The best doctors from around the world will have no incentive to come to America. Not only will there be longer lines because of more people being seen, there will be less doctors and the best will have left the country to work elsewhere for the highest bidder.

Anyone who supports a NHP only focuses on getting everyone covered. Shuffling figures to make it look good is dishonest. You cannot get more for less. That is simple math. All these savings will come over time. People don't get well overnight. Preventive medicine will not see any benefits for at least a generation.

 

[Alceste]

First off, you have to decide who is going to receive coverage. If you say everyone, just how many everyone's is there? I can see folks crossing the borders by the millions. I don't believe we are less competent, I believe the Dutch or Australians know how many folks are in their country and what their initial expenses will be.

In a nut shell, the difference between us and other countries is, they have sovereign borders and we do not.

Actually, Rick, the tide has turned. USA Today.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Actually, Rick, the tide has turned. USA Today.

Just as the tide turns now, a tidal wave will turn back on us if we adopt socialised medicine.

 

[Alceste]

Just as the tide turns now, a tidal wave will turn back on us if we adopt socialised medicine.

Extremely unlikely if they can't get jobs.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Extremely unlikely if they can't get jobs.

Why do we need jobs if the government is going to give us everything? If I am sick, I don't work anyway.

The bottom line is this, people feel entitled to health care whether they can afford it or not.

 

[Sententia]

Why do we need jobs if the government is going to give us everything? If I am sick, I don't work anyway.

The bottom line is this, people feel entitled to health care whether they can afford it or not.

And you argue that if they cant afford it they should not be given healthcare? Doesn't being poor and having cancer mean you just let people die then because they dont have insurance to pay for the treatments, surgeries and what not to get better?

Are you arguing against welfare or healthcare? Both?

 

[Nemesis_of_3vil]

Go back to the start of the thread and read some posts. You've already been proven wrong - no point going through it all again.

uh, explain? This was my first post on the subject, and no, I wasn't proved wrong, its true, we've got the best in the world.

 

[Magic Man]

The bottom line is this, people feel entitled to health care whether they can afford it or not.

That's probably because they should be.

Are you implying that people shouldn't have access to medicine if they can't afford it? If I can't afford a hospital visit when I accidentally cut off my finger, should I still get help, or should I be turned away?

 

[Alceste]

uh, explain? This was my first post on the subject, and no, I wasn't proved wrong, its true, we've got the best in the world.

What I mean is, others have made exactly the same claim earlier in the thread and been proven wrong. Rather than post all the same material again, I thought you might like to review some of the territory this discussion has already covered, but here is a small sample of the bounty you might find in the previous pages:

Government expenditure on health as a percentage of total health expenditure
Canada: 70.2% United States 45.1%

Hospital beds per 10,000 population
Canada: 34 United States: 32

Infant Mortality rate per 1000 population
Canada: 5 United States: 7

Maternal Mortality per 100,000 live births
Canada: 7 United States: 11

Per capita total expenditure on health:
Canada: $3463 United States: $6347

Life expectancy at birth:
Canada: 81 United States: 78

World Health Organization

 

[McBell]

uh, explain? This was my first post on the subject, and no, I wasn't proved wrong, its true, we've got the best in the world.

Your statement has ALREADY been proven wrong in this thread.
Go back to page one and get caught up.

 

[Autodidact]

Text book strawman. :sorry1:

We have doctors who come here from around the world. Why is that?

And why is that relevant?

Is that even true? You have a source for this factoid?

If true, my guess is that it's because they make more money here. Why is that a good thing for us?