Universalism, the Bible, and Christianity

[IsaiahX]

If you were convinced that the Bible supported Universalism, how would that change your stance toward Christianity?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you were convinced that the Bible supported Universalism, how would that change your stance toward Christianity?

I don't think it would. Christianity is such a black and white religion that to consider it being universalist at all is a far stretch from what it teaches especially the first and second commandment alone. You'd have to rewrite the whole Bible.

 

[IsaiahX]

I don't think it would. Christianity is such a black and white religion that to consider it being universalist at all is a far stretch from what it teaches especially the first and second commandment alone. You'd have to rewrite the whole Bible.

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Hopefully a few scriptures would change your mind. If you have any other questions, I would be glad to answer them.

John 12:32

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

1 Timothy 4:10

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Corinthians 15:22

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ephesians 1:10

As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Acts 3:21

As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

(all quotations are from the ESV)

 

[Dawnofhope]

Some Christians are universalist in their outlook. I went from being a Christian to the Baha'i Faith as Christianity has too many problems. I still believe in the same God, Jesus and bible as the Christians though. There are of course a few theological differences between Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. Those differences I find easy to reconcile through considering the historic and textural context of scripture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself

Yet. The people who are acknowledge are gods chosen Israelites. And his chosen the gentiles who believe (whomsoever believes) will benefit and others will not.

The benefit is for those who accept gods grace.

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Yet. Those who benefit or those who listen to the call win. All are called and few are chosen. Univeralism says all are saved. The bible never teaches that.

Having no god other than me is a huge one. Buddhism has more than one gods. Wiccan has a goddess. Pagans have more than one gods as well but not eastern gods. Muhammad doesn't teach what jesus does. And so forth. Not universalism.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Yes. One needs to repent to benefit. Universalism promise salvation to all. No where in scripture says all will be saved.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Those resurrected will be alive because they had faith in christ. Those who are not of christ will be dead. Forever.

What you are quoting applies to believers. The rest of us aren't bound by God's laws.

As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

But those who are not of christ are not united. If that be the case the pharisees would be reunited as well as sinners god tossed to the side.

As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

It's an analogy. All those who have faith will be one church. JW believe the new earth thing. But they also believe the rest of us are dead. There is no universalism in the bible. There has always been chosen people vs sinners.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@IsaiahX

Those who have sinned and are not christian will not benefit from eternal life. For example, I am not christian. I will not be with god after I die. Id be poofed. Gone. Universalism doesnt teach in dichotomy. It teaches all will come up regardless of what we believe and who we follow. The bible does not teach that.

Matthew 25:46 Those of us who are not of god will suffer because we are separated from god. If it were universal no one needs to have faith. Psalm 9:17

There is a verse that says: "Depart from me for I have never known you." Universalist do not teach this.

Mathew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

 

[IsaiahX]

First of all, I would like to dispell the notion that all will become saved without repenting. I do not believe that this is the case, but that all will repent and therefore be saved.

Secondly, the amount of people who are made alive in Christ is equal to those who died because of Adam. Not only a select few of people die, so the same applies to who obtains life.

Thirdly, if the scriptures claim that God wills for all to repent, and one must repent to be saved, that still means all will be saved because of God's will for all to repent (as repentance brings salvation).

Fourth, it is important to realize that I am not claiming no one will go to hell. I am claiming that hell is a place of discipline and refinement, not everlasting torment. (Malachi 3:2) This is important because it means that when the bible says that a select few are chosen by God, it means they are chosen to be saved in this life, and finally bring salvation to all people. This distinction between different people being saved at different times is excellently expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First of all, I would like to dispell the notion that all will become saved without repenting. I do not believe that this is the case, but that all will repent and therefore be saved.

Secondly, the amount of people who are made alive in Christ is equal to those who died because of Adam. Not only a select few of people die, so the same applies to who obtains life.

Thirdly, if the scriptures claim that God wills for all to repent, and one must repent to be saved, that still means all will be saved because of God's will for all to repent (as repentance brings salvation).

Fourth, it is important to realize that I am not claiming no one will go to hell. I am claiming that hell is a place of discipline and refinement, not everlasting torment. (Malachi 3:2) This is important because it means that when the bible says that a select few are chosen by God, it means they are chosen to be saved in this life, and finally bring salvation to all people. This distinction between different people being saved at different times is excellently expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

Purgatory?

 

[IsaiahX]

Purgatory?

Basically, only that instead of happening at the end of every individuals life, it will happen to all the damned at the end of this age until they are finally saved.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Basically, only that instead of happening at the end of every individuals life, it will happen to all the damned at the end of this age until they are finally saved.

How do you interpret verses that separate gods chosen people, prophet, and savior in contrast to pagans, sinners, and believers?

Was christ lying when he said no one will experience eternal life without faith in his father?

Universalism means a Pagan would be saved just as an Athiest, and a Toaist. There is no god at the center; because, universaism doesnt support one person foundation for all.

If all will be saved, what is the purpose of god having chosen ones, saviors, and prophets?

 

[IsaiahX]

While it is true that their are people who are Pagans, Athiest, and Taoist now who will not go to heaven directly after they die, the authors of scripture looked forward to a day that all people would have faith in the Father, whether that faith manifests in this world or in the next.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

- 1 John2:2

 

[IsaiahX]

Also, I would like to clarify that the greek word usually translated forever in scripture, aiṓnios, is better translated age-long (a finite amount of time) than forever.

This would drastically change the meaning of Bible verses such as Revelation 20:10, making the torment of finite duration.

However, some may say that if the same word used to describe the torment of sinners is used to describe the life of believers, that their life would also be finite. However, the word aiṓnios still can mean forever. However, other sections of the Bible support the notion of everlasting life for believers, such as Isaiah 51:6. Everlasting torment receives no such support. Thus, we can assume aiṓnios means forever when speaking of everlasting life, but age-long when speaking of torment of the wicked

 

[Unveiled Artist]

While it is true that their are people who are Pagans, Athiest, and Taoist now who will not go to heaven directly after they die, the authors of scripture looked forward to a day that all people would have faith in the Father, whether that faith manifests in this world or in the next.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

- 1 John2:2

Does the person have a say in whether they want to be with god or not?

Some dont want to be with god; so, I dont see the issue with some going to hell and others not. It makes more sense that god be honest to those who want to believe than lie and say, guys you wont make it..oops.. I change my mind, you are all saved.


Also, if you are addressing me you can type this @myname (@IsaiahX) or keep the quote. I have my site preference on default; so, I cant see if you been here long.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also, I would like to clarify that the greek word usually translated forever in scripture, aiṓnios, is better translated age-long (a finite amount of time) than forever.

This would drastically change the meaning of Bible verses such as Revelation 20:10, making the torment of finite duration.

However, some may say that if the same word used to describe the torment of sinners is used to describe the life of believers, that their life would also be finite. However, the word aiṓnios still can mean forever. However, other sections of the Bible support the notion of everlasting life for believers, such as Isaiah 51:6. Everlasting torment receives no such support. Thus, we can assume aiṓnios means forever when speaking of everlasting life, but age-long when speaking of torment of the wicked

I honestly dont see the logistics and life and death importance to know which word is Greek, why god separates himself from others, and who christ saves. If your salvation is based on your interpertation, lingusitic knowledge, and belief of scriptures I dont think anyone would make it to heaven. Too much "I am right." Even universalist have that view which is ironic because by definition, they shouldnt.

It sounds like many non-lurtigical christians focus more on what christ says instead of speaking from direct experience of who christ is.

But, no. The bible always spoke in divides. It would make god a lier to say he has chosen people, chosen prophets, chosen savior, saving his chosen then on the same coin saying everyone goes to heaven after being "cleansed" of venial sins.

I see so much confliction that in my opinion, a lot of you shape the bible how you guys want it to be not how it is written. I guess its easier to get a good idea if I spoke to someone in Hebrew or Greek. Outside of that, its mostly reference.

Its better to draw your own conclusions and discuss how you believed X is the truth based on personal experience. I read about experiences from many many many historical people; but, half of them dont mean anything to me because I have no direct and desired experience to know them more than read and study.

 

[danieldemol]

I believe in universalism, but don’t really care if the Bible says it’s true or not.
I just think it’s not befitting of God to give an infinite punishment for finite crimes.

 

[IsaiahX]

Does the person have a say in whether they want to be with god or not?

Some dont want to be with god; so, I dont see the issue with some going to hell and others not. It makes more sense that god be honest to those who want to believe than lie and say, guys you wont make it..oops.. I change my mind, you are all saved.


Also, if you are addressing me you can type this @myname (@IsaiahX) or keep the quote. I have my site preference on default; so, I cant see if you been here long.

I wouldn't say that God lies to sinners before finally saving them. The whole purpose of hell being there in the first place is for people who reject God. When all those reject God keep resisting his salvation, God will finally let them have their own way. He will confine them to the lake of fire, the total absence of all God's blessings and favor. When they finally realize the shear desirability and glory of God and learn of the unsatisfying, unintresting nature of sin (whether that takes a day or ten trillion years) they will have no choice but swearing allegiance to God (Isaiah 45:23-24).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wouldn't say that God lies to sinners before finally saving them. The whole purpose of hell being there in the first place is for people who reject God. When all those reject God keep resisting his salvation, God will finally let them have their own way. He will confine them to the lake of fire, the total absence of all God's blessings and favor. When they finally realize the shear desirability and glory of God and learn of the unsatisfying, unintresting nature of sin (whether that takes a day or ten trillion years) they will have no choice but swearing allegiance to God (Isaiah 45:23-24).

Since we, who reject god, will be in a lake of fire it stops being universalism. Univeralism saves all so there is no punishment for rejection.

...those who willing fully reject god, a lot of us, like myself, never experienced god to begin with. According to christianity we are coersed to believe and when we are given free will to follow what is best for us, we are punished.

That's not universalism. It's a trait of extreme division and this is why christianity is a black and white faith.

Another question. Do you think its better for someone to reject god because he or she follows a practice that benefits his well-being or should he accept gods blessings even though he didn't want them to begin with?

What's up with the coersion?

 

[IsaiahX]

Since we, who reject god, will be in a lake of fire it stops being universalism. Univeralism saves all so there is no punishment for rejection.

...those who willing fully reject god, a lot of us, like myself, never experienced god to begin with. According to christianity we are coersed to believe and when we are given free will to follow what is best for us, we are punished.

That's not universalism. It's a trait of extreme division and this is why christianity is a black and white faith.

Another question. Do you think its better for someone to reject god because he or she follows a practice that benefits his well-being or should he accept gods blessings even though he didn't want them to begin with?

What's up with the coersion?

Universalism does not mean a lack of punishment, only that everyone will eventually be saved. I apologize for not having explained the punishment in hell better. You see, those who are in hell are in no way forced to repent. Theoretically, they could have remained in their rejection of God forever and he would allow them. However, God's grace, given enough time to make a decision for or against God, is ultimately irresistible. All those in hell will eventually repent not because they they are force to, but because they must discover that there is no other reasonable or desirable path.

Another misconception is the nature of hell itself. The fire, at least in my opinion, is figurative, and no active punishment is enacted against the sinners. The suffering endured in hell is from the absence of God's gracious presence, which the damned willfully choose. Or, in the words of C.S. Lewis, "“God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing.” Actually, the only difference between the doctrine of eternal torment and Universalism is that universalist believe that God never rejects one who calls upon Him, in this life or the next (Acts 2:21). If God accepts all who call upon Him, and He is ultimately irresistible, than there is no other option than universal salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you're saying is a contradiction

Universalism does not mean a lack of punishment, only that everyone will eventually be saved. I apologize for not having explained the punishment in hell better

How can a person be eventually saved when they will continue to reject god?

Does god make someone believe or does he see the rejected knows what's best for himself?

You see, those who are in hell are in no way forced to repent. Theoretically, they could have remained in their rejection of God forever and he would allow them. However, God's grace, given enough time to make a decision for or against God, is ultimately irresistible.

Rejection is rejection. For example, I am rejecting the Christian (muslim and jewish) concept of god as a deity. I will burn forever because of it. Does god want me to lie so I won't go to hell or be honest with him and myself regardless the consequences?

If one is eventually saved, no one can reject. They would eventhat come to god. That doesn't benefit that person. It's, by definition, coersion and pushes people towards belief to avoid rejecting god. That is not love nor blessings.

All those in hell will eventually repent not because they they are force to, but because they must discover that there is no other reasonable or desirable path

That doesn't make sense. Why punish someone if they going to be saved anyway? Doesnt that sound unnecessary?

The suffering endured in hell is from the absence of God's gracious presence, which the damned willfully choose. Or, in the words of C.S. Lewis, "“God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing.”

Some of us don't want to be with god. If god really had love he would accept our decision without us suffering from the consequence. He does what's best for himself not for others.

For example, I receive love and happiness without god. I train my mind and body gradually and with each life time I am closer to actual understanding dying and eventually I will be dead. So far I know we will all be dead. Best to learn about life now as to prepare for death.

But I dont have that mindset of people will eventually come to what I believe. Yes, everyone will be reborn but I'm not one to say you or anyone must believe. It's not like god where one suffers from rejection. A lot of gods in history take up that view...least a lot of the western ones influenced by Greek and Roman politics no doubt.

If God accepts all who call upon Him, and He is ultimately irresistible, than there is no other option than universal salvation.

This is your faith. I see how it makes sense to you, but what about other people who know more about themselves than you?

If god promoted universal salvation he would not wait or cleanse us so we Must Eventually accept him. That's not love. Love has no strings attached. He would let people die because he loves and their free will. But that's not the case. It makes more sense if there were no universal salvation. It would be direct: you believe, you are saved. If not, you die. Very clear cut.

Everything else is so complicated.

 

[IsaiahX]

How can a person be eventually saved when they will continue to reject god?

Rejection is rejection. For example, I am rejecting the Christian (muslim and jewish) concept of god as a deity. I will burn forever because of it. Does god want me to lie so I won't go to hell or be honest with him and myself regardless the consequences?

Just because someone rejects God at one point does not mean that they will not accept him later. Humans change their core beliefs even in this life. Everyone who ever converted to Christianity is evidence of that. How can you say that over a long enough period of time even your own views of God will not change?

Does god make someone believe or does he see the rejected knows what's best for himself?

If one is eventually saved, no one can reject. They would eventhat come to god. That doesn't benefit that person. It's, by definition, coersion and pushes people towards belief to avoid rejecting god. That is not love nor blessings.

It would make sense if your were talking of any human, but for a being who's entire nature depends upon being omniscient and omnibenevolent, I would hope you would at least consider making an exception. How would one be able to argue with an omniscient being at all? If God operates on such a level that he knows what would truly satisfy us before we do ourselves, it would be irresponsible and unloving for him to let us decide for ourselves. His very nature would leave him with no choice.

Some of us don't want to be with god. If god really had love he would accept our decision without us suffering from the consequence.

God cannot allow you to reject his blessings without consequences. The absence of his presence is the consequence, the absence of all love, joy, hope, life, being, identity, form, creation, order or reality. To reject him would be to reject everything.

He does what's best for himself not for others.

How could God saving others benefit himself? As he is self-sufficient, he does not save people because he needs to, but because of love.

For example, I receive love and happiness without god. I train my mind and body gradually and with each life time I am closer to actual understanding dying and eventually I will be dead. So far I know we will all be dead. Best to learn about life now as to prepare for death.

While I do admit that one can experience some happiness and love without a relationship with God, I don't think it is anything more than temporary and (to an extent) superficial. Only true, lasting peace, joy, and goodwill can be obtained through God, something I can attest to from personal experience. At this point, I think it is best for us to respectfully disagree.