Universalism, the Bible, and Christianity

[IsaiahX]

I honestly dont see the logistics and life and death importance to know which word is Greek, why god separates himself from others, and who christ saves. If your salvation is based on your interpertation, lingusitic knowledge, and belief of scriptures I dont think anyone would make it to heaven. Too much "I am right." Even universalist have that view which is ironic because by definition, they shouldnt.

It sounds like many non-lurtigical christians focus more on what christ says instead of speaking from direct experience of who christ is.

But, no. The bible always spoke in divides. It would make god a lier to say he has chosen people, chosen prophets, chosen savior, saving his chosen then on the same coin saying everyone goes to heaven after being "cleansed" of venial sins.

I see so much confliction that in my opinion, a lot of you shape the bible how you guys want it to be not how it is written. I guess its easier to get a good idea if I spoke to someone in Hebrew or Greek. Outside of that, its mostly reference.

Its better to draw your own conclusions and discuss how you believed X is the truth based on personal experience. I read about experiences from many many many historical people; but, half of them dont mean anything to me because I have no direct and desired experience to know them more than read and study.

I'm sorry if I came off as negative or conceited. Salvation has nothing to do with how schooled you are in Greek, and I'm sorry if you got any such meaning from the post. It was just meant to be an extra bit of information to provide an explanation for some verses just in case someone was wondering about them.

About God's chosen people, even from early in scripture God has revealed his plan for his elect to bring salvation to all people (Genesis 22:18). God's chosen groups are not the be-all-end-all of salvation, only the earliest receivers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Everyone who ever converted to Christianity is evidence of that. How can you say that over a long enough period of time even your own views of God will not change?

That's hopeful wishing. I can pose the same question. You will go through rebirth thousands of times until you understand life and death by training your mind. It doesn't need to be this life time. After years of tuning once you understand that's your last rebirth. Then you die.

I hope that you come to know The Dharma so you won't be reborn. How do you know your beliefs won't change next lifetime of the next?

How can we change our true self? How can I change my race? My heart? My friendship? My creativity?

These things are a part of me as christ is a part of you. There is no either or scenario. No hoping we will be awakened because it would be against our wishes to be awakened. Who would benefit from changing our whole selves to god? It won't benefit us internally. That's not who we are.

By that train of thought above and below is passive force. It says I am not really happy until I follow your faith. It's a nasty abrahamic mindset I never agreed with.

It would make sense if your were talking of any human, but for a being who's entire nature depends upon being omniscient and omnibenevolent, I would hope you would at least consider making an exception. How would one be able to argue with an omniscient being at all? If God operates on such a level that he knows what would truly satisfy us before we do ourselves, it would be irresponsible and unloving for him to let us decide for ourselves. His very nature would leave him with no choice.

If you place your beliefs and concerns on me (and others) as if we are not benefiting or lost somehow, I can see your point. I can't follow that line of thinking because that would me wonder why you dont want to not be rebirth.

I don't think that because that belief is not for you. You have christ. What I believe should have nothing to do with you and asking seriously why you dont take mt truth to heart is an insult unless you are interested.

God cannot allow you to reject his blessings without consequences. The absence of his presence is the consequence, the absence of all love, joy, hope, life, being, identity, form, creation, order or reality. To reject him would be to reject everything.

Yes. I reject. I have consequences. That's your faith not mine. My question is, what is the use of consequence of I will be saved anyway?

How could God saving others benefit himself? As he is self-sufficient, he does not save people because he needs to, but because of love

Does god benefit from saving believers?

While I do admit that one can experience some happiness and love without a relationship with God, I don't think it is anything more than temporary and (to an extent) superficial. Only true, lasting peace, joy, and goodwill can be obtained through God, something I can attest to from personal experience. At this point, I think it is best for us to respectfully disagree

Shrugs. I'm more interested in the conflicting messages. Universal salvation with temporary punishment. That sends mixed messages. The bible is very clear if you don't believe in god and reject him you -will not- be with him for eternity.

I see on RF many christians have hope for us rejecters. Maybe because it's hard to believe god would punish his children. One side says I will die and be seperated from god forever. I won't be resurrected nor go to heaven. The other side says if I have faith I will be judged by my deeds and go to heaven because of what I did based on faith.

Those two views make sense and scriptural depending on the person. That middle ground: you are punished but god will save you sends mixed messages. Universalism is fine in itself but it's very mixed messages especially in a religion where special people and individuals benefit as gods chosen while other believers depend on them for gods words.

It sends mixed messages.

 

[IsaiahX]

That's hopeful wishing. I can pose the same question. You will go through rebirth thousands of times until you understand life and death by training your mind. It doesn't need to be this life time. After years of tuning once you understand that's your last rebirth. Then you die.

I hope that you come to know The Dharma so you won't be reborn. How do you know your beliefs won't change next lifetime of the next?

How can we change our true self? How can I change my race? My heart? My friendship? My creativity?

These things are a part of me as christ is a part of you. There is no either or scenario. No hoping we will be awakened because it would be against our wishes to be awakened. Who would benefit from changing our whole selves to god? It won't benefit us internally. That's not who we are.

By that train of thought above and below is passive force. It says I am not really happy until I follow your faith. It's a nasty abrahamic mindset I never agreed with.

It's things like this that make me think about how none of us really have proof of anything besides our own consciousness. Who's to say that any of us are right? Maybe the truth is a giant spaghetti monster floating above time and space. It's not like anybody can prove otherwise. To be frank, I don't know anything about the Dharma, but the closest anyone can come to true proof of Christianity is the changes that happen in someone's own way of thinking (Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 12:2), seeing as to how our thoughts are the only thing we can truly perceive anyway. It's also somewhat helpful that the one proper name of God seems to allude to panentheism (Exodus 3:14), I AM WHO I AM being the only true certainty, and the only statement that all beings can say truthfully. Identity is the substance of existence after all. Anyway, thanks for the post, it really made me think.

 

[IsaiahX]

So how are you going to do this.

In scripture, we find many bible verses that seem to say that all will be saved: 1 Corinthians 15:22, Colossians 1:20, Acts 3:21, 1 John 2:2, and Philippians 2:10-11 being a few examples.

However, there are also many verses that seem to say sinners will be tormented forever, such as Revelation 20:10, Revelation 21:8, Matthew 25:46, and Revelation 14:10.

It seems that there is a contradiction. On one hand scripture says that all will be saved, but on the other it seems to imply some will be tormented forever. However, there are a few tools we can use to discover the true message the bible is attempting to communicate.

First of all, the belief that torment in hell is everlasting is a fallacy. Whenever translators translate the Greek word aiónios they usually render it as everlasting. However, the word can also be translated age-long, a finite amount of time. Even though our relationship with Christ has nothing to do with our linguistic skill, this fact is still useful as it nullifies verses such as Revelation 20:10.

It is also important to note that death in scripture is not typically used to mean total destruction. Jesus was not totally destroyed when he died on the cross, his spirit simply left his body. Therefore verses such as Revelation 21:8 are nullified as well.

I want to clarify that I am not rejecting the existence of hell altogether, only saying that it is a place of discipline and refinement, not everlasting wrath (Psalm 30:5, Malachi 3:2).

For more information on the subject, I would recommend this link (God went through hell so we can too) on the Blog Reforming Hell

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's things like this that make me think about how none of us really have proof of anything besides our own consciousness. Who's to say that any of us are right? Maybe the truth is a giant spaghetti monster floating above time and space. It's not like anybody can prove otherwise. To be frank, I don't know anything about the Dharma, but the closest anyone can come to true proof of Christianity is the changes that happen in someone's own way of thinking (Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 12:2), seeing as to how our thoughts are the only thing we can truly perceive anyway. It's also somewhat helpful that the one proper name of God seems to allude to panentheism (Exodus 3:14), I AM WHO I AM being the only true certainty, and the only statement that all beings can say truthfully. Identity is the substance of existence after all. Anyway, thanks for the post, it really made me think.

I can't speak for others who practice Dharma, but for me, I can see it in myself and everyday life. Everything goes in cycles and nothing disappears. We are born, we age, and we die. Instead of scripture, we go strictly on practice, experience and observation.

Unlike some thoughts of Christian faith such as truth only coming from faith, a lot of us believe truth comes from action (deeds or what you do). What we do determines our rebirth not what we believe.

It's much more strong than many protestant evangelist christianity where deeds are pushed aside for faith in regards to salvation.

When you see plants, some plants regrow as they are taken care of. When we take care of ourselves, we regrow. Another thing about Dharma (Buddhism) is it talks very specific about life and death and suffering. The Suttas (scriptures loosely translated) are over a thousand. Tons that it makes the bible look small compared. It addresses every problem under the sun bot in analogy mostly and directly.

Some say rebirth exist because people have came back to tell their testimonies of being someone else in another life. I have a feeling I was in the Holocaust and always avoided that because I have dreams etc. Which makes me think since I wasn't born during WW2 (I believe).

A lot of us use suttas as a reference. I know some lineages that do use them as sacred scriptures but the point is it's meant to be practiced not believed. You have belief but your experience from action is what confirms it rather than verses in the bible. If I'm discussing suttas, I may quote but if it's just to argue, I don't. What's the use of quoting any scripture when both people are reading it in two totally different views.

Why do many of you (as christians) speak of god, heaven, etc as fact when by definition you are believing by faith?

Isn't that a contradiction to quote the fact of the bible (what we can prove with our senses such as the brain) when faith comes from believing in things not seen (not materially proven)?

I mean you guys can say we reject till the cows come home but how can you speak it as fact for yourself and others when it's based on faith?

 

[Faithofchristian]

In scripture, we find many bible verses that seem to say that all will be saved: 1 Corinthians 15:22, Colossians 1:20, Acts 3:21, 1 John 2:2, and Philippians 2:10-11 being a few examples.

However, there are also many verses that seem to say sinners will be tormented forever, such as Revelation 20:10, Revelation 21:8, Matthew 25:46, and Revelation 14:10.

It seems that there is a contradiction. On one hand scripture says that all will be saved, but on the other it seems to imply some will be tormented forever. However, there are a few tools we can use to discover the true message the bible is attempting to communicate.

First of all, the belief that torment in hell is everlasting is a fallacy. Whenever translators translate the Greek word aiónios they usually render it as everlasting. However, the word can also be translated age-long, a finite amount of time. Even though our relationship with Christ has nothing to do with our linguistic skill, this fact is still useful as it nullifies verses such as Revelation 20:10.

It is also important to note that death in scripture is not typically used to mean total destruction. Jesus was not totally destroyed when he died on the cross, his spirit simply left his body. Therefore verses such as Revelation 21:8 are nullified as well.

I want to clarify that I am not rejecting the existence of hell altogether, only saying that it is a place of discipline and refinement, not everlasting wrath (Psalm 30:5, Malachi 3:2).

For more information on the subject, I would recommend this link (God went through hell so we can too) on the Blog Reforming Hell

As for 1 Corinthians 15:22, there is no where there, that says all will be saved.

As for Colossians 1:20, there's nothing there thats said all will be saved.

As for Acts 3:21, there's nothing said all will be saved

As for Philippines 2:10-11, there's nothing said all will be saved

As for 1 John 2:2, there's nothing said all will saved.

Are you sure that you can read.

 

[IsaiahX]

As for 1 Corinthians 15:22, there is no where there, that says all will be saved.

As for Colossians 1:20, there's nothing there thats said all will be saved.

As for Acts 3:21, there's nothing said all will be saved

As for Philippines 2:10-11, there's nothing said all will be saved

As for 1 John 2:2, there's nothing said all will saved.

Are you sure that you can read.

Then how do you interpret the phrases made alive, reconciled, restored, confessing in Jesus (everyone who confesses Jesus is saved (Romans 10:13) and Christ dying for all sins as meaning?

 

[David T]

Some Christians are universalist in their outlook. I went from being a Christian to the Baha'i Faith as Christianity has too many problems. I still believe in the same God, Jesus and bible as the Christians though. There are of course a few theological differences between Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. Those differences I find easy to reconcile through considering the historic and textural context of scripture.

Ok adrian i will be like joan baez and a friend of bahi! Dont expect to see me at a service unless its in a forest!

 

[Faithofchristian]

Then how do you interpret the phrases made alive, reconciled, restored, confessing in Jesus (everyone who confesses Jesus is saved (Romans 10:13) and Christ dying for all sins as meaning?

To answer your question, Those that believe in Jesus that call upon his name shall be saved.

There will be many people that will call upon the name of Christ Jesus ,But look what Jesus tells them in Matthew 7:22-23,

22-- "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23-- "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

Just because someone calls upon the name of Jesus does not mean that they are saved.

As for the phrases made alive in
1 Corinthians 15:22--"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive"
What this mean is, Upon a person accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, Then that person comes alive in knowing Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Where once they did not accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they were dead of not accepting Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, But now they come to accept Christ Jesus, that now they are made alive unto Christ Jesus.

This mean that they came to the realization of knowing, accepting Christ Jesus, that by accepting Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are made alive unto Christ Jesus and God.

 

[IsaiahX]

As for the phrases made alive in
1 Corinthians 15:22--"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive"
What this mean is, Upon a person accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, Then that person comes alive in knowing Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Where once they did not accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they were dead of not accepting Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, But now they come to accept Christ Jesus, that now they are made alive unto Christ Jesus.

This mean that they came to the realization of knowing, accepting Christ Jesus, that by accepting Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are made alive unto Christ Jesus and God.

The verse is saying that the same amount of people who died because of Adam is equal to the amount of those who will be made alive in Christ. Everyone who ever lived died due to Adam's sin, both spiritually or physically. That means that 100% of people will also, as you put it, "come to the realization of knowing, accepting Christ Jesus, that by accepting Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are made alive unto Christ Jesus and God."

There will be many people that will call upon the name of Christ Jesus ,But look what Jesus tells them in Matthew 7:22-23,

22-- "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23-- "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

Just because someone calls upon the name of Jesus does not mean that they are saved.

I do agree that there will be people who insincerely call out to Jesus during the Judgement who will be confined to the lake of fire. However, even after they are confined to the lake of fire they have a hope of repentance and salvation (2 Peter 3:9).

 

[IsaiahX]

I can't speak for others who practice Dharma, but for me, I can see it in myself and everyday life. Everything goes in cycles and nothing disappears. We are born, we age, and we die. Instead of scripture, we go strictly on practice, experience and observation.

Unlike some thoughts of Christian faith such as truth only coming from faith, a lot of us believe truth comes from action (deeds or what you do). What we do determines our rebirth not what we believe.

It's much more strong than many protestant evangelist christianity where deeds are pushed aside for faith in regards to salvation.

When you see plants, some plants regrow as they are taken care of. When we take care of ourselves, we regrow. Another thing about Dharma (Buddhism) is it talks very specific about life and death and suffering. The Suttas (scriptures loosely translated) are over a thousand. Tons that it makes the bible look small compared. It addresses every problem under the sun bot in analogy mostly and directly.

Some say rebirth exist because people have came back to tell their testimonies of being someone else in another life. I have a feeling I was in the Holocaust and always avoided that because I have dreams etc. Which makes me think since I wasn't born during WW2 (I believe).

A lot of us use suttas as a reference. I know some lineages that do use them as sacred scriptures but the point is it's meant to be practiced not believed. You have belief but your experience from action is what confirms it rather than verses in the bible. If I'm discussing suttas, I may quote but if it's just to argue, I don't. What's the use of quoting any scripture when both people are reading it in two totally different views.

Why do many of you (as christians) speak of god, heaven, etc as fact when by definition you are believing by faith?

Isn't that a contradiction to quote the fact of the bible (what we can prove with our senses such as the brain) when faith comes from believing in things not seen (not materially proven)?

I mean you guys can say we reject till the cows come home but how can you speak it as fact for yourself and others when it's based on faith?

The main source of my faith in Christianity is the changes that happen both within my own actions and the actions of others when they come to faith in Christ. Whenever I draw to God, I am always filled with an ineffable peace, joy, and compassion for other people (Philippians 4:7). If someone claims to have surrendered their life to Jesus and do not have a lasting change in their behavior (Galatians 5:22-23), you can, more often than not, assume they are being insincere.

 

[pearl]

The translation in the Eucharistic Liturgy approved for the church in the United States replaces the words "for all" with "for the many." Jesus said that his blood was shed "for many" (see Matthew 26:28). But Jesus died "for all" (1 Timothy 2:6).


Although Jesus died for all, not everyone chooses to accept this gift. Each individual must choose to welcome the gift of salvation in Christ and live according to that grace, so that he or she may be among "the many" that are described in this text.

Possibilities

Jesus’ language at the Last Supper about his blood being poured out "for many" recalls "the many" that are three times mentioned in Isaiah 53:11-12.

Isaiah foretold that God one day would send his servant who would make himself "an offering for sin," bearing the sin of "many" and making "many" righteous (Isaiah 53:10-12).

Jesus at the Last Supper says his own blood being poured out "for many," possibily associating himself with this "suffering servant" figure prophesied by Isaiah. Jesus is the one who offers his life for the "many." Or is this in opposition to the fact that Jesus died "for all" (1 Timothy 2:6)?

 

[IsaiahX]

The translation in the Eucharistic Liturgy approved for the church in the United States replaces the words "for all" with "for the many." Jesus said that his blood was shed "for many" (see Matthew 26:28). But Jesus died "for all" (1 Timothy 2:6).


Although Jesus died for all, not everyone chooses to accept this gift. Each individual must choose to welcome the gift of salvation in Christ and live according to that grace, so that he or she may be among "the many" that are described in this text.

Possibilities

Jesus’ language at the Last Supper about his blood being poured out "for many" recalls "the many" that are three times mentioned in Isaiah 53:11-12.

Isaiah foretold that God one day would send his servant who would make himself "an offering for sin," bearing the sin of "many" and making "many" righteous (Isaiah 53:10-12).

Jesus at the Last Supper says his own blood being poured out "for many," possibily associating himself with this "suffering servant" figure prophesied by Isaiah. Jesus is the one who offers his life for the "many." Or is this in opposition to the fact that Jesus died "for all" (1 Timothy 2:6)?

It is true that you must accept Jesus' gift to benefit from salvation. However, given enough time to repent in the refining fire of hell, you could propose that, eventually, everyone will accept the free gift. We have hope that God is able to humble even the most conceited heart, given enough time (Daniel 4:37).

 

[pearl]

, given enough time to repent in the refining fire of hell,

What is referred to as Hell is a state of non-existence, not a physical place.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you were convinced that the Bible supported Universalism, how would that change your stance toward Christianity?

Heh... if I thought the Bible supported universalism, I would think that Christianity - which generally doesn't support universalism - was fundamentally hypocritical.

(FYI - I don't think the Bible generally supports universalism... though it's often not consistent with itself, so there may be some verses that support it)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The main source of my faith in Christianity is the changes that happen both within my own actions and the actions of others when they come to faith in Christ. Whenever I draw to God, I am always filled with an ineffable peace, joy, and compassion for other people (Philippians 4:7). If someone claims to have surrendered their life to Jesus and do not have a lasting change in their behavior (Galatians 5:22-23), you can, more often than not, assume they are being insincere.

Actually I don't see it so negative. Unless you are perfect and better christian than others, everyone is growing in christ. I never heard christ telling his believers he has to be perfect to follow his father.

He did talk a out rejecters in a sense he felt if you don't want to believe (at all) you can't benefit from salvation. Which makes sense. Why get upset over a gift you didn't receive to open....

I mean it's rude to say rejecters will be consequences for not opening your gift, but behind the negativity it makes sense that we would be punished or be seperated from god forever. It benefits us because we know what is best for our wellbeing.

Let me ask. Why do you feel the rest of us don't have real peace as you have? What is the spiritual benefit of seperating your peace from rejecters and even your peers?

 

[Faithofchristian]

The verse is saying that the same amount of people who died because of Adam is equal to the amount of those who will be made alive in Christ. Everyone who ever lived died due to Adam's sin, both spiritually or physically. That means that 100% of people will also, as you put it, "come to the realization of knowing, accepting Christ Jesus, that by accepting Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are made alive unto Christ Jesus and God."



I do agree that there will be people who insincerely call out to Jesus during the Judgement who will be confined to the lake of fire. However, even after they are confined to the lake of fire they have a hope of repentance and salvation (2 Peter 3:9).

Once someone are cast into the Lake of fire, There's is no return, Their gone not to exist ever again.Thats what the Lake of fire is about. They are destroyed never to exist ever again.
That of 2 Peter 3:9 has nothing to do with the Lake of fire.

What's 2 Peter 3:9 is about, that people have the time now and up to just before Christ Jesus returns, to get themselves right with Christ Jesus.
That after Christ Jesus has returned there's no more salvation to be offered to anyone, everyone has made their decisions as to who's side their on.

 

[IsaiahX]

Once someone are cast into the Lake of fire, There's is no return, Their gone not to exist ever again.Thats what the Lake of fire is about. They are destroyed never to exist ever again.
That of 2 Peter 3:9 has nothing to do with the Lake of fire.

What's 2 Peter 3:9 is about, that people have the time now and up to just before Christ Jesus returns, to get themselves right with Christ Jesus.
That after Christ Jesus has returned there's no more salvation to be offered to anyone, everyone has made their decisions as to who's side their on.

Consider the parable of the wheat and the chaff (Matthew 3). Google defines chaff as "the husks of corn or other seed separated by winnowing or threshing." The chaff comes from the exact same plant as the wheat. If the chaff is burned up, that would mean that God is destroying the unusable, sinful part of a person (which would definitely go along with Malachi 3:2). It seems that God always provides a way to repentance and purification, an opportunity to enter His Kingdom, the gates to which are always open (Revelation 21:25).

What is referred to as Hell is a state of non-existence, not a physical place

How could one suffer in a state of non-existence? (Revelation 20:10)

 

[IsaiahX]

Actually I don't see it so negative. Unless you are perfect and better christian than others, everyone is growing in christ. I never heard christ telling his believers he has to be perfect to follow his father.

He did talk a out rejecters in a sense he felt if you don't want to believe (at all) you can't benefit from salvation. Which makes sense. Why get upset over a gift you didn't receive to open....

I mean it's rude to say rejecters will be consequences for not opening your gift, but behind the negativity it makes sense that we would be punished or be seperated from god forever. It benefits us because we know what is best for our wellbeing.

Let me ask. Why do you feel the rest of us don't have real peace as you have? What is the spiritual benefit of seperating your peace from rejecters and even your peers?

I didn't mean that Christians don't grow or make mistakes. I'm just saying that a person who "lives like the devil" without any sign of eventually changing is probably not truly saved.

Let me ask. Why do you feel the rest of us don't have real peace as you have? What is the spiritual benefit of seperating your peace from rejecters and even your peers?

I can't really speak for anyone other than myself, but anything I (or any one I am very close too) every pursued other than God never brought lasting satisfaction.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I didn't mean that Christians don't grow or make mistakes. I'm just saying that a person who "lives like the devil" without any sign of eventually changing is probably not truly saved.

I can't really speak for anyone other than myself, but anything I (or any one I am very close too) every pursued other than God never brought lasting satisfaction.

I grabed the questions I asked. From what I looked up, I asked...

How can there be universal salvation if we are consequenced in the meantime? Why would we need to be consequences when we will eventually be saved?

Why do you feel the rest of us dont have real peace? In other words, can real peace exist without christ? ...and how does it benefit your relationship with christ to agree (if this is true) that rejecters arent experiencing spiritual not earthly peace just as you?

To me, if my religion said all people will die because they dont follow The Dharma would not be a religion I would follow. It contradicts the nature of Dharma. Instead, since there is rebirth, people will eventually understand birth, suffering, age, and death as to no longer be reborn and die. Its a positive way to say we are stil growing until we have personal understanding by our actions (rather than belief).

Personally, I feel religions dependent on gods distract one from understanding the nature of death and dying. However, I only get pushed backs by christians so it makes me wonder with such consequences such as rejection and separation from rejecters and believers, what is the benefit of that faith?