Up for debate

[LightofTruth]

I posted this in another thread as a reply to a debate I was having with a JW: The JW didn't want to continue anymore.

I'm not telling you to abandon anything. I'm simply telling you what "in the flesh" means. It means to have the same flesh as all man. Jesus came in the flesh. And was a son of David according to the flesh. And there is only one kind of flesh of man........SINFUL FLESH!

The fact that you deny Jesus came in that same flesh is considered by John to be anti-Christ. I'm merely suggesting that you abandon anti-Christ ideas.

Now, getting back to the seed of the serpent whose head was bruised. That happened when Jesus offered himself, his flesh, as a sacrifice for sin. The writer of Hebrews puts it like this:

This is quoted from your NWT:

Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things,+ so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death,+ that is, the Devil,+ (Heb 2:14)

Where the NWT says that Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing other translations say that his death destroyed the devil. The meaning implies that the devils work had ceased through the death of Jesus.

The serpents head was bruised by the death of Jesus. The serpent was no longer able to continue to work on Jesus....he was destroyed and come to nothing. The reason the serpent(devil) had come to nothing (destroyed) when Jesus offered his flesh to be sacrificed was because sin resides in the flesh of man. Man's flesh is sinful. The thing that has the power of death, is not some imagined personal and powerful fallen angel, but sin. Adam sinned and death passed to all man. it only took one transgression to condemn the whole human race. And it only took one act to save the entire human race.

if Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing, Then why is the devil still around? It's because the devil, and his works, resides in the flesh of every human being. The devil was only destroyed in the flesh of Christ. The serpent received a crushing blow.

The lust of the flesh, called sinful flesh, and the devil are one and the same thing! The wages of sin is what? Death. He who has the power of death is who? the devil.

The devil is merely a personification of the lust of the flesh which caused the death of the entire human race. Jesus himself was under death's dominion because he was a mortal human and had been condemned to die by the one transgression which condemned all men to die.
Jesus was not only saving us all, but was saving himself also.

Anyone like to debate this? Please no atheist, I already know what they say.

 

[WhoIsBeast 750]

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. It will crush your head, and you will crush his heel. "

I will put enmity between thee and the church, and between thy seed and her seed
it crushes the head (Isaiah 9: 14 15 the elders and dignitaries are the head, the prophets who teach lies are the tail.)

 

[LightofTruth]

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. It will crush your head, and you will crush his heel. "

I will put enmity between thee and the church, and between thy seed and her seed
it crushes the head (Isaiah 9: 14 15 the elders and dignitaries are the head, the prophets who teach lies are the tail.)

I agree. The seed of the women has not only reference to Christ but to all those who are in him (the church)
The enmity is between believers and non-believers and the confrontations are deadly.

 

[WhoIsBeast 750]

I agree. The seed of the women has not only reference to Christ but to all those who are in him (the church)
The enmity is between believers and non-believers and the confrontations are deadly.

I guess we don't understand who is the head of the dragon or the beast which one head bugs

and the church is nothing but a whore, and I mean all religions, not just one

 

[exchemist]

I posted this in another thread as a reply to a debate I was having with a JW: The JW didn't want to continue anymore.

I'm not telling you to abandon anything. I'm simply telling you what "in the flesh" means. It means to have the same flesh as all man. Jesus came in the flesh. And was a son of David according to the flesh. And there is only one kind of flesh of man........SINFUL FLESH!

The fact that you deny Jesus came in that same flesh is considered by John to be anti-Christ. I'm merely suggesting that you abandon anti-Christ ideas.

Now, getting back to the seed of the serpent whose head was bruised. That happened when Jesus offered himself, his flesh, as a sacrifice for sin. The writer of Hebrews puts it like this:

This is quoted from your NWT:

Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things,+ so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death,+ that is, the Devil,+ (Heb 2:14)

Where the NWT says that Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing other translations say that his death destroyed the devil. The meaning implies that the devils work had ceased through the death of Jesus.

The serpents head was bruised by the death of Jesus. The serpent was no longer able to continue to work on Jesus....he was destroyed and come to nothing. The reason the serpent(devil) had come to nothing (destroyed) when Jesus offered his flesh to be sacrificed was because sin resides in the flesh of man. Man's flesh is sinful. The thing that has the power of death, is not some imagined personal and powerful fallen angel, but sin. Adam sinned and death passed to all man. it only took one transgression to condemn the whole human race. And it only took one act to save the entire human race.

if Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing, Then why is the devil still around? It's because the devil, and his works, resides in the flesh of every human being. The devil was only destroyed in the flesh of Christ. The serpent received a crushing blow.

The lust of the flesh, called sinful flesh, and the devil are one and the same thing! The wages of sin is what? Death. He who has the power of death is who? the devil.

The devil is merely a personification of the lust of the flesh which caused the death of the entire human race. Jesus himself was under death's dominion because he was a mortal human and had been condemned to die by the one transgression which condemned all men to die.
Jesus was not only saving us all, but was saving himself also.

Anyone like to debate this? Please no atheist, I already know what they say.

This blaming the body for sin strikes me as an error. The "flesh", i.e. the physical body, is God-created and thus good. What is sinful, surely, is to give way to the body's natural appetites in an uncontrolled way, so that you become their slave rather than their master.

If you start thinking the body itself is intrinsically sinful, you are on your way to the Manichaean heresy, it seems to me - not to mention the psychiatrist's couch.

 

[LightofTruth]

This blaming the body for sin strikes me as an error. The "flesh", i.e. the physical body, is God-created and thus good. What is sinful, surely, is to give way to the body's natural appetites in an uncontrolled way, so that you become their slave rather than their master.

If you start thinking the body itself is intrinsically sinful, you are on your way to the Manichaean heresy, it seems to me - not to mention the psychiatrist's couch.

the apostle Paul would strongly disagree with you. have you read Romans 7?

As far as God creating every thing good. He did. However, with the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Everything would have remained good, and the law is good. But law exposes sin

 

[LightofTruth]

I guess we don't understand who is the head of the dragon or the beast which one head bugs

and the church is nothing but a whore, and I mean all religions, not just one

I would like to keep this on topic if possible.

Are you referring to the seven headed red dragon of Revelation 12?

 

[exchemist]

the apostle Paul would strongly disagree with you. have you read Romans 7?

Of course. Like a lot of St Paul it is characteristically obscure. But he speaks of the struggle to be master of bodily urges, but nowhere, so far as I can see does he say the body itself is intrinsically evil. Considering the body to be evil is not only heretical but deeply unhealthy psychologically. .

 

[LightofTruth]

Of course. Like a lot of St Paul it is characteristically obscure. But he speaks of the struggle to be master of bodily urges, but nowhere, so far as I can see does he say the body itself is intrinsically evil. Considering the body to be evil is not only heretical but deeply unhealthy psychologically. .

I don't find it to be obscure at all. Certainly we need to control our own desires of the flesh. If not we fall into all sorts of problems.

James tells that that everyone is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his OWN desires. And when those desires conceive they give birth to sin.

So it's easily understood what causes sin. Unless you want to disagree with James.

 

[LightofTruth]

Of course. Like a lot of St Paul it is characteristically obscure. But he speaks of the struggle to be master of bodily urges, but nowhere, so far as I can see does he say the body itself is intrinsically evil. Considering the body to be evil is not only heretical but deeply unhealthy psychologically. .

Paul and James are very much in agreement when they speak of the flesh and desires. James simply refers to our own desires as what gives birth to sin, where Paul explains those desires as they relate to the law. For example, Paul says : "I would not know lusts except the law says "Thou shall not covet".

To covet means simply to desire that which does not belong to you. And of course, if one covets or desires what is not his, he is liable to transgress the law and the sin is born.

 

[exchemist]

Paul and James are very much in agreement when they speak of the flesh and desires. James simply refers to our own desires as what gives birth to sin, where Paul explains those desires as they relate to the law. For example, Paul says : "I would not know lusts except the law says "Thou shall not covet".

To covet means simply to desire that which does not belong to you. And of course, if one covets or desires what is not his, he is liable to transgress the law and the sin is born.

Yes bodily urges can give rise to sin, of course. This is partly where the idea of temptation comes from. And yes of course one can be liable to transgress as a result. But being the master of these urges, i.e. being able to resist the temptation to yield to urges when they are not appropriate, is the point being made. The urges themselves are neutral - just part of the bodily machinery.

These bodily urges: to fight, to take things we like, to eat whenever there is food, to copulate, etc., are the same ones possessed by the animals too and they are not thought sinful or evil for it. We, however, are supposed to be master of these desires.

 

[LightofTruth]

Yes bodily urges can give rise to sin, of course. This is partly where the idea of temptation comes from. And yes of course one can be liable to transgress as a result. But being the master of these urges, i.e. being able to resist the temptation to yield to urges when they are not appropriate, is the point being made. The urges themselves are neutral - just part of the bodily machinery.

These bodily urges: to fight, to take things we like, to eat whenever there is food, to copulate, etc., are the same ones possessed by the animals too and they are not thought sinful or evil for it. We, however, are supposed to be master of these desires.

Yes, I agree.

Paul makes of list of things is says are "the works of the flesh" which we are to avoid.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Paul says those things are works of the flesh. However, talking to certain Christian groups they make it sound as if those things are the work of a superhuman fallen angel.

For example, the JW's believe that a personal superhuman angel was cast down to earth in 1914 and that's why there is wars and disease and all sorts of evil things happening, But all those things can be attributed as to works of the flesh.

 

[LightofTruth]

Jesus says a similar thing as Paul:

Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

That seems to eliminate the idea that superhuman fallen angels can enter a man and defile him.

 

[LightofTruth]

if we think about all those evils as coming from the heart, and desires of the flesh, and carnal mind. We might consider that the devil and Satan may be just another way of speaking of those things. Like a way of personifying how sin and death has come into this world and how it has effected us both physically and mentally.

After all, I did not ask to be born with sinful flesh and a heart that can be totally wicked and a mind that can only focus on things of this world. That's my misfortune. So it almost seems right to personify those things as something other than what and how I really ought to be.