"Upon this rock", which rock?

[Fool]

Jesus said to listen to the Church.

He wanted to avoid the mess with have in protestantism with hundreds of different denominations teaching contradictory messages. Gay priests, abortion, sex outside of marriage, this is all taught as moral in some protestant churches led by those who decide what's right with their inner conscience.

That's gnosticism, not Christianity. We follow those sent by Christ and granted his authority to teach.

where to or more are gathered in my name, exodus 3:14, i am there. that isn't talking about some physical church in a specific place

I AM with you always. that is what the book of revelation is all about. the basic idea of john 14:20

colossians 3:11 tells you where christ is and it isn't exclusively in rome.

so you keep right on loving your rome, your catholicism, your personality, everything about you, you, you.

catholicism is a denomination; which has sub-denominations. spirituality isn't about material things.


i will be exalted among the nations, i will be exalted in the earth(body)


1 corinthians 6:12-20

jesus didn't glorify an external building not even solomon's temple. fyi, john 21:15 tells peter to serve. it doesn't tell you to serve peter

 

[KW]

where to or more are gathered in my name, exodus 3:14, i am there. that isn't talking about some physical church in a specific place

I AM with you always. that is what the book of revelation is all about. the basic idea of john 14:20

colossians 3:11 tells you where christ is and it isn't exclusively in rome.



catholicism is a denomination; which has sub-denominations. spirituality isn't about material things.


i will be exalted among the nations, i will be exalted in the earth(body)


1 corinthians 6:12-20

jesus didn't glorify an external building not even solomon's temple. fyi, john 21:15 tells peter to serve. it doesn't tell you to serve peter

Jesus started a Church and gave the Church leaders. He told the rest of us to follow them. John 14-17, for example, is spoken to the apostles, not to you and I.

Jesus wanted us to be united in truth. That's why he only started one Church. The Church has nothing to do with buildings, it is the body of Christ led by those chosen by Jesus.

 

[Fool]

Jesus started a Church and gave the Church leaders. He told the rest of us to follow them. John 14-17, for example, is spoken to the apostles, not to you and I.

Jesus wanted us to be united in truth. That's why he only started one Church. The Church has nothing to do with buildings, it is the body of Christ led by those chosen by Jesus.

making all things new doesn't mean they don't become corrupted. besides he told you that he would send a spirit of truth. the spirit of truth is love. love isn't exclusive to a religion, a person, or an institution.

you were given a new commandment. to love one another. that and the name is what you should be meditating, immersing yourself in. not some outward appearance of holiness in a church that is as corrupt as they come.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

As I stated in a previous post, "Kephas" can be translated as "stone" or "rock" as Aramaic doesn't differentiate between the two. And why would Jesus rename him "Kephas" if it really didn't mean anything?

Why would the Bible have many verses that call Jesus the "rock" if it really didn't mean anything?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

You don't accept the words of Christ? Why are you a Christian?

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Jesus did not speak English so he did not say "rock". This is someone's translation.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

`Thou [art] my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


​

Deuteronomy 32:15
And Jeshurun waxeth fat, and doth kick: Thou hast been fat -- thou hast been thick, Thou hast been covered. And he leaveth God who made him, And dishonoureth the Rock of his salvation.


Deuteronomy 32:18
The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee.


2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God save Jehovah? And who a Rock save our God?


2 Samuel 22:47
Jehovah liveth, and blessed [is] my Rock, And exalted is my God -- The Rock of my salvation.


Psalm 42:9
I say to God my rock, `Why hast Thou forgotten me? Why go I mourning in the oppression of an enemy?

Psalm 62:2
Only -- He [is] my rock, and my salvation, My tower, I am not much moved.


Psalm 78:35
And they remember that God [is] their rock, And God Most High their redeemer.


Psalm 89:26
He proclaimeth me: `Thou [art] my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


Psalm 92:15
To declare that upright [is] Jehovah my rock, And there is no perverseness in Him!


Isaiah 26:4
Trust ye in Jehovah for ever, For in Jah Jehovah [is] a rock of ages,


Matthew 7:24
`Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The term "rock" relative to the Old Testament scriptures was God the Father as the "rock" not humans. Jesus is saying here that the rock or God the Father revealed his identity to the apostles and he would build his kingdom on this foundation rock. After Jesus left the "rock" or God the Father is what bears witness to the identity of his Son in the hearts of spirit born believers.

In all of those texts you quoted, I don't see the word "rock" starting with a capital letter in any of them.
Clearly this means the translators did not view rock as deity...rather it is perhaps simply metaphorically referring to something solid upon which we can based our faith.
My view is that Peter (according to Eusebius) became the first bishop of the Christian church. That was the meaning of the prophesy Jesus gave about Peter. He was simply the leader of it.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

This is how the RSV renders it as it is the translation used by most theologians because it tries to get to the closest interpretations: Matthew16[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Why didn't Jesus say " You are Peter, and on YOU I will build my church"? I can see Jesus pointing to Peter ans saying "You are Peter" and then pointing to himself and saying "On this rock I will build my church".

 

[KW]

making all things new doesn't mean they don't become corrupted. besides he told you that he would send a spirit of truth. the spirit of truth is love. love isn't exclusive to a religion, a person, or an institution.

you were given a new commandment. to love one another. that and the name is what you should be meditating, immersing yourself in. not some outward appearance of holiness in a church that is as corrupt as they come.

He was talking to the apostles when he promised they would be led in all truth by the Holy Spirit. We are supposed to follow those he sent.

Look in John 17. He prays for the leaders of the Church first, then he prays for us:

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6“I have revealed you a to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of b your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by c that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by d the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

[Colt]

In all of those texts you quoted, I don't see the word "rock" starting with a capital letter in any of them.
Clearly this means the translators did not view rock as deity...rather it is perhaps simply metaphorically referring to something solid upon which we can based our faith.
My view is that Peter (according to Eusebius) became the first bishop of the Christian church. That was the meaning of the prophesy Jesus gave about Peter. He was simply the leader of it.

Wow! reread the first 4 on the list of quotes that I provided and tell me again that "Rock" isn't capitalized in any of them?

 

[KW]

Why didn't Jesus say " You are Peter, and on YOU I will build my church"? I can see Jesus pointing to Peter ans saying "You are Peter" and then pointing to himself and saying "On this rock I will build my church".

That wouldn't make any sense. In the same breath he gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom. He also told Peter to feed his sheep and strengthen the brethren. Jesus knew that he would be leaving the earth.

Jesus wants us to be united. We need a single authority to settle disputes in order to be unified. That's why you see hundreds of protestant churches. Once they left the fold they just kept dividing.

 

[Link]

Simon (a) is manifest outward leader successor of Isa (a) (many hadiths Shiite) per Shia Islam. What many don't know though, is per Quran, Elyas (a) was the hidden inward holy spirit light successor of Isa (a).

If you read Paul explanation (which is enlightening and guided by Jesus and Elijah holy light but not from God like Gospels) keeping this in mind, it makes a lot of sense.

Per Al-Kafi the final "safeguarding" of the religion , who took the staff of Musa (a) was the witness who testified to Mohammad (s) in Surah Al-Ahqaaf (Sandunes) and also passed other holy items like the ring of Sulaiman (a).

Witness in Quran mostly (sometimes not, few times not) refers to the holy leaders and guides who witness people's states and record their deeds.

Can think of it now that Khamanei is outward leader successor of Mohammad (s) (since Imam Mahdi (a) not in the open). And Imam Mahdi (a) is the light behind the clouds and pole and caller to God still.

Khamanei (ha) can be wrong about issues. Same with the church up to Mohammad (S) time.

Simon (a) and the successors of his, are meant to hold the fort, till Mohammad (s) comes.

Khamanei (ha) and those who succeed him, meant to hold the fort, till the Mahdi (a) returns.


When the chosen ones, go hidden, only normal humans like Simon (a) and Khomeini (q) and Khameinei (h) can lead outwardly.

That's just reality.

 

[Link]

Paul was a mystic and very high saint in my view. But I will prove this over time in another thread. His teachings misunderstood and words taken out of context.

He is not chosen exalted leader by God but he is like a Sufi saint or Irfan saint in my view.

Very important mystic at a pivotal point of history.

 

[Fool]

He was talking to the apostles when he promised they would be led in all truth by the Holy Spirit. We are supposed to follow those he sent.

Look in John 17. He prays for the leaders of the Church first, then he prays for us:

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6“I have revealed you a to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of b your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by c that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by d the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

1 Corinthians 2:16

Christ is found within. God is omnipresent

Again, christ is the teacher. Not the catholic church

 

[KW]

1 Corinthians 2:16

Christ is found within. God is omnipresent

Again, christ is the teacher. Not the catholic church

Did the teacher tell you to listen to the church?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not sure if you realize it, but "Peter" means "rock."

This passage is all about wordplay. It becomes nonsense if Peter isn't "the rock."

The first Google answer is always the best one. How can anyone disagree about this being the rock?:

 

[sojourner]

Its an age old debate but in my opinion Peter wasn't the "rock". Since the NT books were written well into Pauls heavy influence on recollections and new believers, the exchange often quoted between Jesus and the apostles at Caesarea Philippi Matthew 16:13-20 may not have been accurately recalled anyway. That is to say that the writing (and subsequent editing) of the Gospels was done with a Pauline bias.

The "Rock" in context was the fact that the Father revealed to the apostles the identity of the Son. Faith in the Father was the central theme of the original Gospel. Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”


The rock wasn't fallible Peter, it was the FAITH in the Father that Jesus had been preaching for 3+ years before being killed due to the original, pre-cross Gospel!


It was really Peter on the day of Pentecost who began to preach about the latest and most spectacular of all the miracles associated with Jesus, returning from death on his own volition as he said he could and would; the resurrection of Jesus. It was Peter who began the new Gospel about Jesus which replaced the original Gospel of Jesus, the "good news" about the Father, that we are ALL sons and daughters of the living God. That God is personal to each one of us, not a national God and certainly not for an especially chosen few. "Christ and him crucified" replaced Jesus Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.


Paul was a student of Peter. Paul never having known Jesus expanded upon the ideas of Peter and further developed the new Gospel into a new religion about Jesus. Paul's atonement doctrine was appealing to the Pagan religions considering that they already had similar beliefs. Plus the atonement doctrine had the effect of ending Temple sacrifices for the newly emerging Christian church.


So Paul's Gospel, Christianity is really a version of Peters Gospel that was a version of Jesus' Gospel, The Kingdom of Heaven.



.

Except that Paul predates any of the gospels. So it’s more likely that Paul is the basis for everything else.

 

[Fool]

Did the teacher tell you to listen to the church?

I've read the bible multiple times, using multiple versions. Why would o need someone to interpret for me, what I can read for myself?

That word, arnion, is only used again to represent christ in revelation.

There are two types of people in this world, sheep and goats. The goats are service to self. You're serving catholicism and some idea of where God should be limited.

The sheep aren't about appearance. They are service to all as self. So if you came to serve catholicism, and some idea of exclusivity, you missed the mark.

John 21:15 are lambs that Peter was told to feed. Those lambs, arnion, are Christ's, God omnipresent

G721 - arnion - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

 

[KW]

I've read the bible multiple times, using multiple versions. Why would o need someone to interpret for me, what I can read for myself?

That word, arnion, is only used again to represent christ in revelation.

There are two types of people in this world, sheep and goats. The goats are service to self. You're serving catholicism and some idea of where God should be limited.

The sheep aren't about appearance. They are service to all as self. So if you came to serve catholicism, and some idea of exclusivity, you missed the mark.

John 21:15 are lambs that Peter was told to feed. Those lambs, arnion, are Christ's, God omnipresent

G721 - arnion - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

Why do you think your interpretation is more valid than the 2000 year old church?

 

[rational experiences]

No man. No names exist either. Rock is a man's given name to rock whether he's alive as a human or not.

Ego of man. Rock existed unnamed in reality. Fixed held.

Peter a man's used name. Human applied name.

Said I use this name from circumstance.... repetere...repitition...repeats. constants.

As a review of man's experience only.

So it has nothing to do with why rock exists or was founded. As no human man is involved.

Nor does the human name Paul own why rock is held.

Being the human scientists theists question.

Peter founded the healing church based on man's burnt prickling head attacked advice as a following notice to men after the Jesus event.

Happened for many years after.

As it didn't just finish fallout at the huge voiding vacuum four day man caused tectonic carpenter attack.

Earthquake.

As men say it's my fault.
As men quote I name an earthquake a fault line. To remind me I caused the add fake + mass cross of earth life sacrificed myself.

Life sacrificed.

As science came from sciences rock advice returned Satan star burning rock wanderer. Removal of Rock also.

So your rock isn't God the earth.

As science is Satanism.

A testimonial involves science plus natural man's human experiences....not science.

 

[idea]

"Not revealed by flesh and blood" is the key. No more apostles, no more prophets, no more middlemen, no more flesh and blood. Cursed are they who rely on arms of flesh and blood, cursed are they who rely on other people.

Self reliance is the rock. No borrowed light. No leaders. Be your own light without being told by others what to do.