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Uproar over Kerry Iraq remarks

PureX

Veteran Member
Frankly, I think both of these idiots should keep their mouths shut until they learn how to speak english. Kerry couldn't clearly convey his thoughts to other people if his life depended on it. It's the biggest reason he lost the presidential election. And Bush can't even think clearly, let alone articulate what he's thinking. Seeing these two idiots sniping at each other is like watching a vaudeville skit.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Victor said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15499174/?GT1=8618#storyContinued

"Our troops did not enlist because they did not study hard in school or do their homework,"

What do you think about this?

Do people who enrole in the military simply represent those who do not appreciate academia?

It's confusingly phrased. (And I'm the queen of confusing phrases! :D) Do the 'nots' cancel out? I'll have to go and look at the context, but I'd hope so.

I do not think that those who enroll in the military represent those who do not appreciate academia. I'll admit that my grandpa and others who served in the WWII generation that I've met don't seem to have much use for degrees and stuff, but I'm not sure if they seemed all that practical back then. If anything, those who join the military nowadays that I've met seem to appreciate schooling more than those who are not enlisted. Not sure why that is, though.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
FeathersinHair said:
It's confusingly phrased. (And I'm the queen of confusing phrases! :D) Do the 'nots' cancel out? I'll have to go and look at the context, but I'd hope so.

I do not think that those who enroll in the military represent those who do not appreciate academia. I'll admit that my grandpa and others who served in the WWII generation that I've met don't seem to have much use for degrees and stuff, but I'm not sure if they seemed all that practical back then. If anything, those who join the military nowadays that I've met seem to appreciate schooling more than those who are not enlisted. Not sure why that is, though.

I've seen that pattern as well. I think the authorities within encourage that in the military. They strive to exellence and discpline themselves to get what they seek. That is part of the military life.
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
I took the following comments:

John Kerry said:
"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

to mean that George W. Bush didn't do his homework on the whole preparation for war and then on how to handle that war once it was ongoing, especially after the march to Baghdad - we're stuck in a quagmire. I didn't take it to be directed at the troops. This is the remark everyone is uspet about, isn't it? Regardless, Kerry should have phrased this statement much better because it's open to so much interpretation.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Victor said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15499174/?GT1=8618#storyContinued
Do people who enrole in the military simply represent those who do not appreciate academia?
I think to accurately answer this question you'd have to poll the entire military. You would get varying answers I'm sure.

Many people join the military to PAY for an education when they get out. And if you believe the advertising, that's about all you have to do......serve your country and receive a paid education for it in return. :rolleyes:

Anyone of officer rank is a college graduate so tell all the generals, captains, admirals, lieutenants, and majors that they're losers.....don't think they'd like that too much.
 

Faint

Well-Known Member
I think many people enlist in the armed forces in order to receive money for college, or some other kind of education that the recruiters sell them on. Most soldiers I know or have heard of just want to do something to get out of their current situation and build a better life for themselves (and family if applicable). Only a small percentage I would say join up because they like the idea of going to war or want to "serve their country". No, it's the allure of making something out of oneself.

That being said, people with more education (and perhaps more intelligence) tend to find better civilian options for advancement and see the service as and unecessary waste of time (for themselves...not the country).
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
standing_alone said:
I took the following comments:



to mean that George W. Bush didn't do his homework on the whole preparation for war and then on how to handle that war once it was ongoing, especially after the march to Baghdad - we're stuck in a quagmire. I didn't take it to be directed at the troops. This is the remark everyone is uspet about, isn't it? Regardless, Kerry should have phrased this statement much better because it's open to so much interpretation.

Beyond open to other interpretations, it is difficult to get Bushism out of that phrase. The guy screwed up and it's political suicide almost.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Buttercup said:
I think to accurately answer this question you'd have to poll the entire military. You would get varying answers I'm sure.

Many people join the military to PAY for an education when they get out. And if you believe the advertising, that's about all you have to do......serve your country and receive a paid education for it in return. :rolleyes:

Anyone of officer rank is a college graduate so tell all the generals, captains, admirals, lieutenants, and majors that they're losers.....don't think they'd like that too much.

I've been to military camps since infancy. Most all those men encourage education very highly in my experience.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Faint said:
I think many people enlist in the armed forces in order to receive money for college, or some other kind of education that the recruiters sell them on. Most soldiers I know or have heard of just want to do something to get out of their current situation and build a better life for themselves (and family if applicable). Only a small percentage I would say join up because they like the idea of going to war or want to "serve their country". No, it's the allure of making something out of oneself.

That being said, people with more education (and perhaps more intelligence) tend to find better civilian options for advancement and see the service as and unecessary waste of time (for themselves...not the country).

That's true. But in my experience most of the engineers who came out of the military are much better engineers then those who didn't.
 

lizskid

BANNED
It was a poorly phrased potshot at Bush, but it only served to give the Repugs ammunition just before the election. Dork. Why could he leave well enough alone? W. is playing this up to the rafters!
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
Beyond open to other interpretations, it is difficult to get Bushism out of that phrase. The guy screwed up and it's political suicide almost.

Definately. I think what PureX said was spot on.
 

Moni_Gail

ELIGE MAGISTRUM
My husband joined to get his degree. His parents couldn't afford school. For him, this meant that he wouldn't have a buttload of school loans to pay off, he could get training for a great career that his schooling would expound on. Plus, he left home at 18 to help his parents. It was one less mouth to feed.

He very much appreciates education and has been working very hard to achieve his degree. Not only does he work more than full time, being a flyer he's constantly deploying and when he is home his local training flights are 12-16 hours. Then he comes home, plays husband, dad, and does his school work.

Kerry's clear disdain for the military was already evident during his failed run for presidency. Why does he feel the need to continue showing his contempt? Such a high percent of our country is not only active duty, but also veterans or the family of both groups.

A common sense rebuttal is the fact that officers have to have a degree and even they are in Iraq.:sarcastic
 

Moni_Gail

ELIGE MAGISTRUM
Faint said:
That being said, people with more education (and perhaps more intelligence) tend to find better civilian options for advancement and see the service as and unecessary waste of time (for themselves...not the country).

Was that necessary?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Moni_Gail said:
Was that necessary?

Nope. From what I know of military people (and I live in a town with five bases), many of them are pretty smart folks, curious about the world around them, and not narrow minded in their beliefs about it. I meet them in the coffee shops here and have had good conversations on every subject from politics to poetry with military people.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Victor said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15499174/?GT1=8618#storyContinued

"Our troops did not enlist because they did not study hard in school or do their homework,"

What do you think about this?

Do people who enrole in the military simply represent those who do not appreciate academia?
I see a big disconnect between the title of the thread and the author of the quoted remarks.

From the link!

"Our troops did not enlist because they did not study hard in school or do their homework," Bush said

What is it you really want to discuss?
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
standing_alone said:
I took the following comments to mean that George W. Bush didn't do his homework on the whole preparation for war and then on how to handle that war once it was ongoing, especially after the march to Baghdad - we're stuck in a quagmire. I didn't take it to be directed at the troops. This is the remark everyone is uspet about, isn't it? Regardless, Kerry should have phrased this statement much better because it's open to so much interpretation.

I agree and I am no fan of Kerry at all. I think he was tryig to say that Bush and his cabinet were uneducated and didn't do there homework concerning Iraq, and now they are stuck there. If you are going to make a comment like that though, you should choose your words much much more carefully, and make sure that everyone is clear on the subject that you are refering to.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Kerry's rejoinder http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/us/31kerry-transcript.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Let me make it crystal clear, as crystal clear as I know how. I apologize to no one for my criticism of the president and of his broken policy. If anyone owes our troops in the fields an apology, it is the president and his failed team and a Republican majority in the Congress that has been willing to stamp -- rubberstamp policies that have done injury to our troops and to their families.

My statement yesterday -- and the White House knows this full well -- was a botched joke about the president and the president's people, not about the troops. The White House's attempt to distort my true statement is a remarkable testament to their abject failure in making America safe. It's a stunning statement about their willingness to reduce anything America, the raw politics. It's their willingness to distort, their willingness to mislead Americans, their willingness to exploit the troops as they have so many times at backdrops, at so many speeches in which they have not told the American people the truth.

I'm not going to stand for it. What our troops deserve is a winning strategy, and what they deserve is leadership that is up to the sacrifice that they're making. Sadly, this is the best that this administration can do in a month when we have lost 100 young men and women who have given their lives for a failed policy. Over half the names on the Vietnam wall were put there after our leaders knew that our policy was wrong, and it was wrong that leaders were quiet then, and I'm not going to be quiet now. This is a textbook Republican campaign strategy: try to change the topic, try to make someone else the issue, try to make something else said the issue, not the policy, not their responsibility.

Well, everybody knows it's not working this time, and I'm not going to stand around and let it work.

If anyone thinks that a veteran, someone like me, who's been fighting my entire career to provide for veterans, to fight for their benefits, to help honor what their service is -- if anybody thinks that a veteran would somehow criticize more than 140,000 troops serving in Iraq, and not the president and his people who put them there, they're crazy. It's just wrong.

This is a classic GOP textbook Republican campaign tactic. I'm sick and tired of a bunch of despicable Republicans who will not debate real policy, who won't take responsibility for their own mistakes, standing up and trying to make other people the butt of those mistakes.

I'm sick and tired of a whole bunch of Republican attacks, the most of which come from people who never wore the uniform and never had the courage to stand up and go to war themselves.

Enough is enough. We're not going to stand for this.

This policy is broken, and this president and his administration didn't do their homework. They didn't study what would happen in Iraq. They didn't study and listen to the people who were the experts and would have told them. And they know that's what I was talking about yesterday. I'm not going to be lectured by a White House or by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, who's taking a day off from mimicking and attacking Michael J. Fox, who's now going to try to attack me and lie about me and distort me. No way. It disgusts me that a bunch of these Republican hacks, who have never worn the uniform of our country, are willing to lie about those who did. It's over.

This administration has given us a Katrina foreign policy: mistake upon mistake upon mistake, unwilling to give our troops the armor that they need, unwilling to have enough troops in place, unwilling to give them the humvees that they deserve to protect them, unwilling to have a coalition that is adequate to be able to defend our interests.

Our own intelligence agency has told us they're creating more terrorists, not less; they're making us less safe, not more. I think Americans are sick and tired of this game.

These Republicans are afraid to stand up and debate a real veteran on this topic, and they're afraid to debate -- you know, they want to debate straw men because they're afraid to debate real men.
 

Faint

Well-Known Member
Moni_Gail said:
Was that necessary?
I think more intelligent people tend to see little value in joining. This is not to say people in the military cannot be intelligent. I'm just saying in general.

Moni_Gail said:
My husband joined to get his degree. His parents couldn't afford school. For him, this meant that he wouldn't have a buttload of school loans to pay off, he could get training for a great career that his schooling would expound on. Plus, he left home at 18 to help his parents. It was one less mouth to feed.
Yes, the military can help people in this regard...people unable to find better options on their own. But some of us coming from similar situations are able to figure out how to make money without jumping through all the hoops of military service. I will not say there is no honor in what your man did. But I do hold to my original point.
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Faint said:
That being said, people with more education (and perhaps more intelligence) tend to find better civilian options for advancement and see the service as and unecessary waste of time (for themselves...not the country).
Faint, have you been in the military? If not, what do you base this on?
 
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