Urban Sprawl From Hades!

[Cacotopia]

I assume you aren't aware that Singapore is a military dictatorship.

Ah I would call SGD's govt more a benevolent dictatorship than a military dictatorship. But a dictatorship all the same.

 

[Audie]

You're the only one so far who's shown that they don't. Singapore is only a nominal democracy. The state exerts strong control over the country and its citizens. I'll grant that it has become less of a dictatorship since the accession of Lee Hsien Loong, but it's still a fairly accurate descriptor.

And if you knew anything at all about Indonesia, you'd realize how ridiculous it is to say its problems are due to "lack of political will".

Ok you've changed your story. It needed
to be changed.
But you dont get to change mine, with a
falsified quote no less.

 

[Audie]

The point is there are always people that do not care about cleanliness, or their own negligence towards the environment, they exist in every metropolis no matter how clean the city might be.

The trash they produce will always be someone else's problem because they simply don't give a ****.

I have met a few in my time. They had a good upbringing, some even brought up in wealth, everyone else in the family is clean and 'tidy' to a degree, and then there is that one person who literally never cleans the area around his personal self, where there are dishes in the sink from who knows how many months ago, black mold in the carpet or tile, a toilet bowl black with residue of 1000's oh dumps taken and never cleaned.

Most people are generally clean, even messy folks can be clean, their rooms are in chaos like mine is most of the time but it is not filthy and rancid like a sewer that is built and never maintained a single time. I would say even the lazy ones that don't clean daily reach a threshold that triggers them into cleaning mode. "This is too much I need to do a full scale cleaning operation and then let it slip back slowly to this state."

I think there is something mentally wrong with these folks that allow their personal space to devolve into such a state.

And the point is, they are everywhere Tokyo probably has at minimum 1000-5000 of these particular kinds of people wallowing in filth they care not to actively get rid of.

And mine was that the group mentality of Japanese, among others,
is to be clean and tidy.

It is not a value on American Indian reservations.

Sounds as ifJakarta is not a place that values tidiness
either.

 

[Cacotopia]

I would attribute a chunk Indonesia's plastic problem to their cultural history of consuming food and the recent insertion of massive amounts of plastic into the food industry.

Before not so long ago they wrapped their food in banana leaves. where they were discarded anywhere and everywhere with whatever wasn't consumed, it's biodegradable. Replace nearly all food packaging with a plastic product but the habit of the people remains = massive trash problem.

Educating the populace that plastic stays there and doesn't degrade for 1000's of years never happened. Habit remains to this day, if you ever travel here just watch the older gen. They will open whatever, and dump it on the ground without a care in the world. When they were kids, 30+ years ago, those products weren't in plastic.

 

[Cacotopia]

They will clean their houses, very well I will add, but not the public spaces, it's not their property. But it is technically they live in that area, they do not have sole ownership but a collective ownership that they benefit from which is not in their education, though slowly it is being integrated into the routine of the younger generation. This takes time, several generations, but is there enough time? I don't think so.

It is of my opinion that Indonesians are driven by short term monetary goals, if there is no tangible reward at the end of the effort then it is not worth investing time in. There can be road construction and gravel left on the road for months at a time. Maybe they are hoping the rain will wash it away one day. And risk daily on their motorbikes serious injury for what could be as little as 30 minutes sweeping the road. It's not their road, no one is paying them to clear it, so no one clears it.

So I do it, I sweep the street in my village once every weekend if there is gravel on the road. My reward is avoiding undue injury from crap on the road. And NOT paying any medical bills, or suffering from being unable to work due to injuries. But I feel like they do not think in that kind of capacity, otherwise someone would clean the road of hazardous objects.

But don't throw out a blanket judgement on a people whose country you have never been to or experienced.

 

[Cacotopia]

And mine was that the group mentality of Japanese, among others,
is to be clean and tidy.

It is not a value on American Indian reservations.

Sounds as ifJakarta is not a place that values tidiness
either.

have you ever been to an American native reservation?

 

[Audie]

have you ever been to an American native reservation?

Yes, I have.
I was frightened by it, it was not a good place for
me to be.

 

[Audie]

They will clean their houses, very well I will add, but not the public spaces, it's not their property. But it is technically they live in that area, they do not have sole ownership but a collective ownership that they benefit from which is not in their education, though slowly it is being integrated into the routine of the younger generation. This takes time, several generations, but is there enough time? I don't think so.

It is of my opinion that Indonesians are driven by short term monetary goals, if there is no tangible reward at the end of the effort then it is not worth investing time in. There can be road construction and gravel left on the road for months at a time. Maybe they are hoping the rain will wash it away one day. And risk daily on their motorbikes serious injury for what could be as little as 30 minutes sweeping the road. It's not their road, no one is paying them to clear it, so no one clears it.

So I do it, I sweep the street in my village once every weekend if there is gravel on the road. My reward is avoiding undue injury from crap on the road. And NOT paying any medical bills, or suffering from being unable to work due to injuries. But I feel like they do not think in that kind of capacity, otherwise someone would clean the road of hazardous objects.

But don't throw out a blanket judgement on a people whose country you have never been to or experienced.

Is it not so, though, that there is a lack of national
spirit, or will involved? You more or less said so,
referring to the habit of throwing trash about.

 

[Cacotopia]

I wouldn't label it a "lack of national will" the trash problem apparent in Indonesia is more from a failure to educate the populace on the side of the government. The country is RIFE with corruption. Again that could be within their own culture to stiff outsiders but "not your own." That sort of philosophy is strong in middle eastern countries as well.

 

[Cacotopia]

Yes, I have.
I was frightened by it, it was not a good place for
me to be.

Oh well I guess one is the same as all of them huh.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Ok you've changed your story. It needed
to be changed.
But you dont get to change mine, with a
falsified quote no less.

My bad; you said "national will". I wasn't looking at your post at the time; I apologize, and assumed they meant the same thing. What is "national will" and how is it distinct from "national will"?

What "story" did I change? As @Cacotopia mentioned, Singapore is a benevolent dictatorship of sorts, and one which to an extent allows elections, but I think 'dictatorship' is still a fair descriptor.

 

[Cacotopia]

From what I have found searching for if SG is a dictatorship or not.


Maybe it is not "officially" a dictatorship any more but it does still have an authoritarian government with extreme limits on what the population can even vote for.

And a bunch of their laws are quite invasive in the public domain.

Singapore has compulsory military service, depending on medical eligibility of course, you either A go to jail or B lose your citizenship if you refuse to serve, all citizens under the age of 40-50 depending on fitness of course after their service are inducted into the NSmen and can be immediately conscripted into service in times of need. This is a non negotiable contract.

Singapore's anti drug laws are some of the harshest in the world. If you don't have a doctor's note for a prescription that could be considered a schedule 1 drug I wouldn't even go there.

Homosexual relations can earn a person 2 years in jail,

The government also suppresses freedom to assembly, press, and speech.

 

[Audie]

My bad; you said "national will". I wasn't looking at your post at the time; I apologize, and assumed they meant the same thing. What is "national will" and how is it distinct from "national will"?

What "story" did I change? As @Cacotopia mentioned, Singapore is a benevolent dictatorship of sorts, and one which to an extent allows elections, but I think 'dictatorship' is still a fair descriptor.

How indeed is "national will" different from
"national will"? What a question.
Beats me. Also,why you chose to misquote me.
Then too , you have the bright line distinction
between an elected govt, and a dictatorship
to work out.

 

[Audie]

A cabin in the woods for me.

How deep in what kind of woods?
On or off grid?