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[Ben Dhyan]

Now that looks like a personal attack. Please defend your last claim with proper evidence.

Don't give me that "If you failed it is your fault" bull****.

Natural karma, ie., cause and effect, is real, that's how this baby works. But the good news is reincarnation is also intrinsic to universal process, there is no hell per se, the soul that does not unite with the higher Self in one life will eventually make it, karma teaches what works and is inherent to the evolutionary process.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is no debate, atheists so not understand what and who they really are, you can post another 50,000 comments denying it, but the truth is that at a deeper level, a God given level, your soul knows the truth and there is this inner debate within atheists that never ends. So don't take it out on religious folk who know the truth, just go within and your inner light will dissolve the error of the terrified deceived atheistic ego.

Oh wow, I didn't know you were a mind-reader too! This dude knows what I truly believe deep inside, despite my attestation to the contrary!
Wait a minute .... are you God?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Atheists are terrified of reality, terrified of God, and thus spend so much time and energy trying to refute, argue against, or denigrate the truth bringers, those whose life's mission is religiously inspired. That is why you are obsessed in this compulsive posting process, for although you claim you do not believe there is a higher power, at a deeper spiritual level the truth is known. It is a very sad state oof affairs for the atheist, for they spend so much time and energy on forums such as this trying find relief from the inner dissonance of knowing the truth at one level and not knowing at the eternal ego level. Why this comes about is clearly due to some earlier life conditioning, perhaps guilt and the resulting fear of divine punishment for it. Fear not, karma is not a punishment, it is a teacher, once one lesson has been learned, it's over forever, God is forgiving but a stern teacher.

Look at you, bashing people who merely asked you for evidence for your claims.
It seems a nerve has been hit.
You've made it very clear who has the ego issues here. But do go on ....

 

[SkepticThinker]

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom,

Nope.

Unless of course, you can actually demonstrate this. I won't hold my breath.

it seems you are not yet in the starting blocks. You fear alright, but your fear arises from the inner knowing that there is a creator of all manifested things, not the ego mind which denies a creator exists. You are its expression yet you deny its existence, sad.

Nonsense.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You asked how monks achieve the state of Nirvana, I answered through meditation. What do you find wrong?

Meditation has as its purpose the stilling of the mind so there is no thought. No thought means no thinker. No thinker means there is no "I".. No ego means that whatever awareness is now present, it is not a conceptualization When one spends a lot of time in this state of pure awareness frequently, over many decades of practice, a higher Self evolves that is spiritually based as opposed to the body self.

As an atheist, you refuse to acknowledge a higher governing power of existence, I have no problem with your belief, some people believe in unicorns.

I'm saying that all your words are concepts that are meant to represent whatever it is they are meant to represent, I'm saying that concepts will never in all eternity be anything other than symbolic, the real is not the word, the name, the concept, the symbol, etc. To realize that which the concepts are meant to represent, one must achieve that like the monks through meditation, Nirvana.

Btw, it would be helpful is you could break your replies into smaller but more posts. I am not asking that you don't get to cover all that you want, but better to do it in more posts rather than just one. As it is, it is difficult to see the context of my answers to your points.

It's kinda hard to acknowledge something which you have no knowledge of. Wouldn't you say?

I don't have any knowledge of "a higher governing power of existence" and so I'm agnostic on the subject. I lack belief in "a higher governing power of existence" because I've seen no evidence of such a thing. So I am an agnostic atheist. Which isn't the same thing as believing in unicorns, because that would actually be a belief and/or a knowledge claim, rather than a lack of belief or lack of knowledge.

And the problem is, every time we ask someone like you - who claims to have this knowledge - where the evidence for said knowledge is, we don't get any kind of answer that we can work with. Instead, we get insults and woo-woo language thrown at us.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Such a position would just mean that person is not called, end of story.

How convenient.

 

[F1fan]

You asked how monks achieve the state of Nirvana, I answered through meditation. What do you find wrong?

This statement of yours, which I already explained, and you ignored.

Nirvana is not a mental state, it is beyond the conception of the human mind. -post 349​

This shows you are inconsistent and wrong. How can monks acheive a state of mind that humans minds can't conceive of? Meditation isn't a supernatural state, it is a natural state that comes with practice and discipline.

Meditation has as its purpose the stilling of the mind so there is no thought. No thought means no thinker. No thinker means there is no "I".. No ego means that whatever awareness is now present, it is not a conceptualization When one spends a lot of time in this state of pure awareness frequently, over many decades of practice, a higher Self evolves that is spiritually based as opposed to the body self.

This is a state of mind that can be achieved through practice and discipline. It is a temporary state. If a person meditating gets hungry they will come out of Nirvana (assuming they have attained this state) to go make a salad. The meditative state has to be suspended once a person has to engage with other human affairs, like with other people, or doing tasks that require navigating the environment and awareness of objects in the environment. Your "higher self" is an irony, as this "higher self" does not exist in Nirvana. It only exists as a goal for the self.

Given the arrogance in your posts I suggest you like the idea of a "higher self" but really have no undestanding of the humility that comes with it. It's like a 10 year old that is given an honorary police badge but he doesn't understand it comes with no actual authority. You seem to ike the status of what you are saying but show none of the understanding of it.

As an atheist, you refuse to acknowledge a higher governing power of existence, I have no problem with your belief, some people believe in unicorns.

This is your claim. No such thing is known to exist. Rational minds can only acknowledge real things. So this illustrates how lost you are in your illusion while posting as if you are more aware of some hidden reality, and atheists are missing something. I would ask how an ordinary, flawed mortal like yourself can know there is a "higher governing power" but then can't explain how you know. But we both know you can't exlpain how it can be done, including yourself. At best you will offer some belief you have. As we know all belief is uncertain, and prone to error.

I'm saying that all your words are concepts that are meant to represent whatever it is they are meant to represent, I'm saying that concepts will never in all eternity be anything other than symbolic, the real is not the word, the name, the concept, the symbol, etc. To realize that which the concepts are meant to represent, one must achieve that like the monks through meditation, Nirvana.

Well educated minds understand what words are, what sentences are, what context and syntax means. Educated minds DON'T have to meditate or reach Nirvana to understand language and meanings. Meditation is a process and Nirvana is a state, and you again are presenting a hoax. You are trying to show us your honorary poilce badge. Do you really think you have authority? It seems you have missed out on the meaning of all this. This is a common religious tactic of trying to create a scenario where you have special knowledge and it is out of reach for rational thinkers. This all falls apart under questioning.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh wow, I didn't know you were a mind-reader too! This dude knows what I truly believe deep inside, despite my attestation to the contrary!
Wait a minute .... are you God?

Are you an expression of It too?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Look at you, bashing people who merely asked you for evidence for your claims.
It seems a nerve has been hit.
You've made it very clear who has the ego issues here. But do go on ....

Shining in light in the darkness isn't bashing.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Nope.

Unless of course, you can actually demonstrate this. I won't hold my breath.

Nonsense.

It is demonstrated by being what and who one really is, not being merely an actor repeating the teaching of atheism 101.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It is demonstrated by being what and who one really is, not being merely an actor repeating the teaching of atheism 101.

There are no "teachings of atheism."

Things are demonstrated by actually demonstrating them.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's kinda hard to acknowledge something which you have no knowledge of. Wouldn't you say?

I don't have any knowledge of "a higher governing power of existence" and so I'm agnostic on the subject. I lack belief in "a higher governing power of existence" because I've seen no evidence of such a thing. So I am an agnostic atheist. Which isn't the same thing as believing in unicorns, because that would actually be a belief and/or a knowledge claim, rather than a lack of belief or lack of knowledge.

And the problem is, every time we ask someone like you - who claims to have this knowledge - where the evidence for said knowledge is, we don't get any kind of answer that we can work with. Instead, we get insults and woo-woo language thrown at us.

The evidence is in the actual realization, the evidence is potentially within you. You can't experience inner realization because someone else did, you must meditate to transcend your personal self, the one that wants evidence. The realized meditator is not in the personal-self state, it does not arise when in the transcendent state.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This statement of yours, which I already explained, and you ignored.

Nirvana is not a mental state, it is beyond the conception of the human mind. -post 349​

This shows you are inconsistent and wrong. How can monks acheive a state of mind that humans minds can't conceive of? Meditation isn't a supernatural state, it is a natural state that comes with practice and discipline.

That is the reason the monks meditate, they understand Nirvana is beyond conception, they try to achieve Nirvana directly, it can never be achieved thought conceptualization.

There is this saying concerning religious conceptual teaching. The true teaching is that there is no true teaching, nevertheless, this teaching that there is no true teaching, is the true teaching.

Do you understand?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There are no "teachings of atheism."

Things are demonstrated by actually demonstrating them.

Atheism 101: Answers, Explanations And Rebuttals [eljq1rpdkw41]

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This is a state of mind that can be achieved through practice and discipline. It is a temporary state. If a person meditating gets hungry they will come out of Nirvana (assuming they have attained this state) to go make a salad. The meditative state has to be suspended once a person has to engage with other human affairs, like with other people, or doing tasks that require navigating the environment and awareness of objects in the environment. Your "higher self" is an irony, as this "higher self" does not exist in Nirvana. It only exists as a goal for the self.

Given the arrogance in your posts I suggest you like the idea of a "higher self" but really have no undestanding of the humility that comes with it. It's like a 10 year old that is given an honorary police badge but he doesn't understand it comes with no actual authority. You seem to ike the status of what you are saying but show none of the understanding of it.

The first para is partly correct, naturally one can come out of Nirvana when appropriate, but the goal is to eventually to be in the enlightened state permanently, a Buddha no less.

Haha, because someone tries to help you to a deeper understanding of Buddhism, you resent it, so who is showing their arrogance.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This is your claim. No such thing is known to exist. Rational minds can only acknowledge real things. So this illustrates how lost you are in your illusion while posting as if you are more aware of some hidden reality, and atheists are missing something. I would ask how an ordinary, flawed mortal like yourself can know there is a "higher governing power" but then can't explain how you know. But we both know you can't exlpain how it can be done, including yourself. At best you will offer some belief you have. As we know all belief is uncertain, and prone to error.

The rational mind is the thinking mind, the thinking mind is not enlightened. You only believe what you think about me, brain synapse firing patterns, cerebral popcorn, it is not the real me, you do not know me nor can you, you are stuck in the rational mind which the monks have the goal to transcend.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Well educated minds understand what words are, what sentences are, what context and syntax means. Educated minds DON'T have to meditate or reach Nirvana to understand language and meanings. Meditation is a process and Nirvana is a state, and you again are presenting a hoax. You are trying to show us your honorary poilce badge. Do you really think you have authority? It seems you have missed out on the meaning of all this. This is a common religious tactic of trying to create a scenario where you have special knowledge and it is out of reach for rational thinkers. This all falls apart under questioning.

You did not understand what was said to you, else you would have not wasted time on all the above conceptualization concerning your beliefs about what was said. So once again, reality is not the same thing as the concept uses to represent it.

You should be familiar with the Buddhist metaphorical 'finger pointing at the moon' way of teaching that the real is to where finger points. The finger is not the moon and is unimportant except as an expedient to show where one should direct their gaze to actually see the moon.. So it is with conceptual descriptions and thoughts pertaining to reality, they act as an expedient to 'point' to THAT which is real, but are not real in themselves (except as mental conceptual representations).

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Is this you?

 

[F1fan]

That is the reason the monks meditate, they understand Nirvana is beyond conception, they try to achieve Nirvana directly, it can never be achieved thought conceptualization.

Your use of the word "conception" is inaccurate in this context. Conception means to invent an idea. Of course monks don't invent the idea of Nirvana. They learn what Nirvana is, and then learn the means to attain that state. No monk learns that understanding what Nirvana means IS to attain Nirvana. You seem to be confusing what Western religion does.

There is this saying concerning religious conceptual teaching. The true teaching is that there is no true teaching, nevertheless, this teaching that there is no true teaching, is the true teaching.

Do you understand?

A similar saying is "the more you try to have the truth the farther away you get from it."

Atheism 101: Answers, Explanations And Rebuttals [eljq1rpdkw41]

This isn't about teachings, which are about some dogma. This is a tutorial. Atheism is a rational approach to religious ideas, namely that it explains that rational minds do not assume any supernatural exists, and only makes conclusions when there is an adequate level of evidence. Religions don't follow this method.

The first para is partly correct, naturally one can come out of Nirvana when appropriate, but the goal is to eventually to be in the enlightened state permanently, a Buddha no less.

No mortal can attain a state of Nirvana permanently and still function.

A Buddha is an enlightened person, not a person in Nirvana.

Haha, because someone tries to help you to a deeper understanding of Buddhism, you resent it, so who is showing their arrogance.

Who is the someone? They wouldn't be boastful and arrogant.

You did not understand what was said to you, else you would have not wasted time on all the above conceptualization concerning your beliefs about what was said. So once again, reality is not the same thing as the concept uses to represent it.

As Krishnamurti would say, the word is not the thing. I knew this before our paths crossed. I'm not sure why you want to think you are teaching me anything. Is your ego that fragile?

You should be familiar with the Buddhist metaphorical 'finger pointing at the moon' way of teaching that the real is to where finger points. The finger is not the moon and is unimportant except as an expedient to show where one should direct their gaze to actually see the moon.. So it is with conceptual descriptions and thoughts pertaining to reality, they act as an expedient to 'point' to THAT which is real, but are not real in themselves (except as mental conceptual representations).

I'm not sure why you are stating these fundamental things that Buddhists know. Are you chest thumping as a display of superiority? That is very primal.

Is this you?

Mockery. This is something a person with superior virtue would post.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Your use of the word "conception" is inaccurate in this context. Conception means to invent an idea.

Nirvana is a concept to represent the reality that is present to the mind of the meditator when there is no ego self present, iow, it is in a state of non-duality.

Of course monks don't invent the idea of Nirvana. They learn what Nirvana is, and then learn the means to attain that state.

When they understand the conceptual teaching that the reality represented by the concept Nirvana can only be realized when the mind is free from conceptualization, then they may go forward to realize it.

No monk learns that understanding what Nirvana means IS to attain Nirvana. You seem to be confusing what Western religion does.

The monk must understand that the reality of Nirvana is a state of mind free from conceptualizing, if they don't understand that, they may waste their life believing the concept of Nirvana can be experienced by the personal self.

A similar saying is "the more you try to have the truth the farther away you get from it."

No, no ,no, it is not, it means that the the reality represented by the concept truth, is not truth, it is an idea, a concept. To realize truth, one must cease all thought.

This isn't about teachings, which are about some dogma. This is a tutorial. Atheism is a rational approach to religious ideas, namely that it explains that rational minds do not assume any supernatural exists, and only makes conclusions when there is an adequate level of evidence. Religions don't follow this method.

Atheism and Theism are concepts, ideas, religions teach that absolute reality is inconceivable, it is non-dual.

No mortal can attain a state of Nirvana permanently and still function.

A mortal is a mortal, an entity that is in the state of Nirvana permanently is a Buddha, not a mortal.

A Buddha is an enlightened person, not a person in Nirvana

A Buddha who has realized Nirvana permanently means they no longer reincarnate, Nirvana isn't a place, it is universal awareness.

Who is the someone? They wouldn't be boastful and arrogant.

Apprehending reality for what it is, is what it is.

As Krishnamurti would say, the word is not the thing. I knew this before our paths crossed. I'm not sure why you want to think you are teaching me anything. Is your ego that fragile?

It is because you are using your rational mind to try and understand that which is non-dual, using duality to find non-duality is to be down an eternal rabbit hole.

I'm not sure why you are stating these fundamental things that Buddhists know. Are you chest thumping as a display of superiority? That is very primal.

Read back through your conceptualizing is this post and tell me that where you understand that the rational mind, dualistic mind, can not realize Nirvana, non-duality.

Mockery. This is something a person with superior virtue would post.

Inferiority complex or sense of humor, which do you have?