US History. Fact or overblown myth?

[Father Heathen]

With all this talk of tearing down statues “erasing history” I’m curious.
I hear, even from people on this very site, that their own education system essentially taught American exceptionalism instead of true history. If I misunderstood anyone, I apologise. But even kids shows have made that observation in the past so.....

The Founding Fathers seem revered, deified even, to my view.
I’m not against origin myths mixing with history. But I mean America takes the concept and runs with it.

So how much history is actually being portrayed by these “contentious” monuments do you think? And I mean actual history, not glorified myths.
Because a lot of your statues look more like religious statues than something one would find in a museum.

I have no horse in this race. This is just to quench my own curiosity.
Americans, how honest do you think your History is? Has that changed over the years, do you think?
Is there merit to keeping the myth rather than face the truth?

Discuss and debate as you like and mods feel free to move this thread if you think it’s in the wrong spot.

It varies from state to state, but from the text books I had in school. It covered the good and the bad, but seemed to emphasize the good and downplay the bad. It covered slavery, the trail of tears, etc
America does have a lot of achievements to be proud of, but also a lot of crimes to be ashamed of. It's important to teach both sides of the coin. It actually does the country a disservice to pretend that it's perfect when it's not. By acknowledging and learning from our transgressions, we can actually improve and become better.
Right know we have half the country bellowing "USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!" as we backslide downward into a cesspit.
The Founding Fathers were brilliant, albeit imperfect men.
Now Benjamin Franklin, there is a very interesting fellow: Benjamin Franklin - Wikipedia

 

[Father Heathen]

I reject this as a revisionist myth. The USA was not built on conquest or white supremacy.
That
is
a
Lie.

The USA was based on settlement, cooperation and the universal equality of mankind.

Manifest destiny? Trail of Tears? Slavery? Does anyone remember the Chinese migrants who built The U.S. railroad system, much less how they were treated?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Americans, how honest do you think your History is? Has that changed over the years, do you think?

Mine was rather skewed. The wrongs against the Natives were heavily downplayed, American involvement in WWII was heavily overplayed, no real mention of France in the Vietnam or the reasons behind that war (asides from the policy of Containment), were the Founding Fathers amd Constitution fell short not really discussed, the role of slavery in the Civil War downplayed, slave revolts hardly mentioned, amd even in college things I lived through and remembered, like Desert Shield and Storm, was basically America swoops in and saves the day.
Overall, History Channel is still a better source of US history.

 

[SomeRandom]

I would say it's probably become "more honest" in the past 30-40 years, although it takes time for it to filter down and work into the fabric of "Americana" itself, which is not so much history, but a kind of "mythos" which some people have embraced.

I respect most historians as honest scholars, but they're not always the ones who are telling the history to the masses, which is another part of the problem.

Part of U.S. patriotism has been a desire to make Americans feel good about themselves and their country as being a beacon of hope, the shining city on the hill, the guardian of freedom and democracy all around the world.

Of course, we can still look back on our history and give an honest appraisal of what was actually done in Americans' name. If it means reevaluating these statues and the historical figures being glorified, then that's what it means. In a way, it's not just learning about history itself, but also about the "history of history," so to speak.

I'm not sure where this unraveling of the mythos and lies of our history will ultimately lead. Perhaps it might cause the entire basis of America's existence to become totally irrelevant.

Fascinating. I guess in a country so young it shouldn’t be surprising that it sounds like there is some “youthful insecurity.” (Yes, I know natives were here for a long *** time beforehand.)

 

[Stevicus]

Fascinating. I guess in a country so young it shouldn’t be surprising that it sounds like there is some “youthful insecurity.” (Yes, I know natives were here for a long *** time beforehand.)

You may have a point there. America is a rather "young" country, although strictly speaking, our government is probably significantly older than the present governments of Europe, most of which sprang up during the 20th century. Germany and Italy didn't really exist as unified nations until long after America was established as a republic.

In a general sense, our national identity started mainly as transplanted English colonists, and the colonies slowly grew from that. At least as far as the point of view of "our" history, it ties in with that. The Jamestown settlement, the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock (and stories about the "First Thanksgiving," which was one of the earliest history lessons I recall). Their "country" was still England, as they weren't really independent yet. So, they already came with their own language, culture, and history which was still rooted in the "Mother Country." So, from 1607 to 1776, those could be like the "growing up years," and then we became teenagers who rebel against their parents.

But later on, we patched things up, and we're all just one big happy family again.

 

[SomeRandom]

You may have a point there. America is a rather "young" country, although strictly speaking, our government is probably significantly older than the present governments of Europe, most of which sprang up during the 20th century. Germany and Italy didn't really exist as unified nations until long after America was established as a republic.

In a general sense, our national identity started mainly as transplanted English colonists, and the colonies slowly grew from that. At least as far as the point of view of "our" history, it ties in with that. The Jamestown settlement, the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock (and stories about the "First Thanksgiving," which was one of the earliest history lessons I recall). Their "country" was still England, as they weren't really independent yet. So, they already came with their own language, culture, and history which was still rooted in the "Mother Country." So, from 1607 to 1776, those could be like the "growing up years," and then we became teenagers who rebel against their parents.

But later on, we patched things up, and we're all just one big happy family again.

Aww. I suspect “Mum and Dad” still disapprove of us Ozzies though

 

[Shaul]

Well, that's obviously not true.

The USA was built on liberal, non-Scriptural, ideology. With a big help from violence, slavery, genocide, and capitalism.


Seriously,
You think that women, blacks, and natives were part of " All men are created equal"?
Heck, Jews were hated and oppressed until the post WWII period. Then the Allied powers could shuffle them off to some Middle Eastern wasteland and feel righteous about it.
Tom

Yes. The core value of America is that all men are created equal. That is true even though it hasn’t always lived up to its core principles at all times.

America bashers will point to ever stumbling America has ever made. Because even they know somewhere deep inside that even though America isn’t perfect it is the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes. The core value of America is that all men are created equal. That is true even though it hasn’t always lived up to its core principles at all times.

America bashers will point to ever stumbling America has ever made. Because even they know somewhere deep inside that even though America isn’t perfect it is the land of the free and the home of the brave.

This is the kind of reaction that fascinates me. At once optimistic but staunchly loyal to the “American Dream” I keep hearing about.

But surely there’s nothing wrong with criticising your own origins? Right?

 

[SomeRandom]

It varies from state to state, but from the text books I had in school. It covered the good and the bad, but seemed to emphasize the good and downplay the bad. It covered slavery, the trail of tears, etc
America does have a lot of achievements to be proud of, but also a lot of crimes to be ashamed of. It's important to teach both sides of the coin. It actually does the country a disservice to pretend that it's perfect when it's not. By acknowledging and learning from our transgressions, we can actually improve and become better.
Right know we have half the country bellowing "USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!" as we backslide downward into a cesspit.
The Founding Fathers were brilliant, albeit imperfect men.
Now Benjamin Franklin, there is a very interesting fellow: Benjamin Franklin - Wikipedia

Wow. You know, we only had a passing acquaintance with American History. But at the risk of being chastised by my US fellows, I fear I might be uncharitable to the fathers in this upcoming post. So my US friends, you have been warned so look away now.




I find it interesting that though many of the “fathers” were avowed slave owners and some owned many or few, they seem to be conflicted. At least in their private writings. Not that that absolves anyone, actions speak louder than words. But after reading all the old texts about the so called “natural state of slavery” it’s an interesting contradiction nonetheless. Like there was something deep down that compelled them to at least re-examine the practice. To varying results but still.

 

[Shaul]

This is the kind of reaction that fascinates me. At once optimistic but staunchly loyal to the “American Dream” I keep hearing about.

But surely there’s nothing wrong with criticising your own origins? Right?

I never said that America was above criticism.

In its basic form American exceptionalism is the recognition that it differs from other nations inasmuch as it is founded on certain principles instead of a common history or ethnicity. There is nothing inherent in that to say America is better or worse than other countries. Although those that chafe at the notion that America is exceptional mistakenly equate exceptionalism with hubris. But they are mistaken in that error.

 

[SomeRandom]

I never said that America was above criticism.

In its basic form American exceptionalism is the recognition that it differs from other nations inasmuch as it is founded on certain principles instead of a common history or ethnicity. There is nothing inherent in that to say America is better or worse than other countries. Although those that chafe at the notion that America is exceptional mistakenly equate exceptionalism with hubris. But they are mistaken in that error.

Well you guys don’t seem to present it that way, but I won’t begrudge you for it.
And since America is not above criticism, what are your thoughts on the aforementioned trail of tears? And manifest destiny?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I find it interesting that though many of the “fathers” were avowed slave owners and some owned many or few, they seem to be conflicted. At least in their private writings. Not that that absolves anyone, actions speak louder than words. But after reading all the old texts about the so called “natural state of slavery” it’s an interesting contradiction nonetheless. Like there was something deep down that compelled them to at least re-examine the practice. To varying results but still.

The original draft of the Declaration condemned the King for bringing slavery into the New World, and the original draft of the Constitution did abolish slavery. The Southern colonies, however, wouldn't have it. Many Founders did free their slaves. Benjamin Franklin was a staunch abolitionist, and started one of the first abolitionist movements in the New World. His one flaw was he believed slavery was so inhumane and detrimental that it would die out on its own, amd convinced the Northern States to concede on the issue, let the South have their slaves so the Union can happen, and balk them where possible such as creatimg the Electoral College and 3/5ths compromise, so that slaves couldn't be used to create a population advantage.
What often isn't taught is the Continental Convention also sowed the seeds of succession and Civil War.

 

[SomeRandom]

The original draft of the Declaration condemned the King for bringing slavery into the New World, and the original draft of the Constitution did abolish slavery. The Southern colonies, however, wouldn't have it. Many Founders did free their slaves. Benjamin Franklin was a staunch abolitionist, and started one of the first abolitionist movements in the New World. His one flaw was he believed slavery was so inhumane and detrimental that it would die out on its own, amd convinced the Northern States to concede on the issue, let the South have their slaves so the Union can happen, and balk them where possible such as creatimg the Electoral College and 3/5ths compromise, so that slaves couldn't be used to create a population advantage.
What often isn't taught is the Continental Convention also sowed the seeds of succession and Civil War.

What’s the Continental Convention? It sounds vaguely familiar.

Also can you explain to me what exactly is the electoral college? I keep hearing how it “rigs” the system or whatever. But I’m not sure how or even what it is exactly.

 

[Father Heathen]

Should I recount the many, many good things you overlook?

Why should I bother? You are a dyed-in-the-wool America hater.

I said the U.S. has done many great things to be proud of, but it also has done many horrible things to be ashamed of. It is a wonderful nation, but it's far from perfect. I didn't "overlook" anything by pointing out the falsehoods of your post.I do love this country which is exactly why I acknowledge and criticize it's faults, so we can learn from them and be better. I know you follow the mindset that insists that blind, unquestioning loyalty to leadership and boot licking is the way to be a good American, but that mindset is actually the very cancer killing this nation.

 

[Father Heathen]

This is the kind of reaction that fascinates me. At once optimistic but staunchly loyal to the “American Dream” I keep hearing about.

But surely there’s nothing wrong with criticising your own origins? Right?

In the U.S. there is mawkish form of Patriotism that's almost cult-like (as you can see), yet ironically it also tends to disavow the very values and virtues the nation was founded upon: freedom, liberty, equality, justice.

 

[Father Heathen]

Wow. You know, we only had a passing acquaintance with American History. But at the risk of being chastised by my US fellows, I fear I might be uncharitable to the fathers in this upcoming post. So my US friends, you have been warned so look away now.




I find it interesting that though many of the “fathers” were avowed slave owners and some owned many or few, they seem to be conflicted. At least in their private writings. Not that that absolves anyone, actions speak louder than words. But after reading all the old texts about the so called “natural state of slavery” it’s an interesting contradiction nonetheless. Like there was something deep down that compelled them to at least re-examine the practice. To varying results but still.

Why would I be offended when you basically reiterated what I said?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What’s the Continental Convention? It sounds vaguely familiar.

Constitutional Convention (United States) - Wikipedia

Also can you explain to me what exactly is the electoral college? I keep hearing how it “rigs” the system or whatever. But I’m not sure how or even what it is exactly.

Its a system where each state gets one electoral college vote for president per House representative. They are rhe ones who elect the president, they cast the votes that count and matter, and traditionally they cast their vote for the popular vote winner of the state they represent.

 

[SomeRandom]

Why would I be offended when you basically reiterated what I said?

Not you, but I didn’t want others to think I was just bashing the US founding fathers. Can’t be too careful online these days.

 

[SomeRandom]

In the U.S. there is mawkish form of Patriotism that's almost cult-like (as you can see), yet ironically it also tends to disavow the very values and virtues the nation was founded upon: freedom, liberty, equality, justice.

Hmm that’s the conundrum I always see. It looks a little bizarre from the outside, not gonna lie.

 

[SomeRandom]

Constitutional Convention (United States) - Wikipedia

Its a system where each state gets one electoral college vote for president per House representative. They are rhe ones who elect the president, they cast the votes that count and matter, and traditionally they cast their vote for the popular vote winner of the state they represent.

Oh thanks.
So who is in this electoral college?