Us Soldier guilty of killing Afghan Civilians

[Alceste]

Okay let me rephrase my question: suppose no one ever invaded Iraq. Paint a picture for me of how Iraq would have someday transitioned from Baath party rule, which favored Sunnis and brutalized Shi'as and Kurds, to an Iraq without sectarian conflict. Explain to me how things would have unfolded between the Iraqi factions if Saddam and his sons had not been deposed by foreign forces.

Who cares? Is it any of our business how Iraq governs herself? Things change. Saddam would have eventually died or been assassinated, somebody else would have taken over. Maybe the next guy would have been nicer. The brutality in Iraq since the US/UK invasion makes the brutality of Saddam's era look like a candle flame compared to the light of the sun. If brutality is what was "bad" about Saddam, then this war you seem to want to approve of was definitely not the solution. If sectarian conflict was what was "bad", this war has worsened the state of affairs a hundred-fold, so you can't argue by any stretch of the imagination this invasion and occupation was "necessary" to avert further brutality and sectarian violence.

What you have now is a new band of thugs installed by the US. They torture, abduct, incarcerate and murder their enemies with far greater relish than Saddam ever did, and the US has an official, written policy of not bothering to do anything about that at all, so clearly the cessation of brutality and oppression in Iraq was not their goal.

I get so fatigued by people pretending the empty propaganda about "freedom" we're fed to get us to send our children to fight for the enrichment of capitalist bazillionaires has anything to do with war. Don't we know this by now? Didn't Goering lay it out plain for all to see?

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

And yet we're still having this same tiresome argument...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Alceste,

I answered your question about the Sunni Civil Defense units disappearing. So, do you have anything else besides the use of Shi'a and Kurdish police commandos which demonstrates the U.S. military decided to incite sectarian violence?

You and I agree on the general conclusions of the stupidity and immorality of the invasion of Iraq. However, I think there are enough good reasons to arrive at this conclusion that we do not need bad reasons. I'm not questioning the whether the Iraq war was stupid or immoral, I'm just questioning certain details which I feel are unnecessary to reach this conclusion, for the sake of keeping the record straight. You said the U.S. military decided to incite sectarian violence. However, I see no evidence of this in the articles you cited and I see no motive to explain why the U.S. would want this or why civil war could not happen on its own without U.S. assistance. Why would the U.S. try to destabilize the interim Iraqi government it helped set up? It seems to me civil war in Iraq was a bad thing for the U.S. no matter how you look at it.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't view Arab leaders as corrupt nor do I view black people as thieves. What are you saying?

I'm saying that many politicians are corrupt, and that many ARAB LEADERS are corrupt - as evidenced by the state of the nations they supposedly lead.

I'd also say that if you're walking in certain areas of Detroit, or New Orleans, or Atlanta, and a gang of black guys starts movinig toward you, you should prudently make plans to avoid them - not because they're black, but because you're likely about to become a victim of crime.

And I believe we should use more profiling in our airports for security purposes.

In other words, use common sense.

 

[Alceste]

Alceste,

I answered your question about the Sunni Civil Defense units disappearing. So, do you have anything else besides the use of Shi'a and Kurdish police commandos which demonstrates the U.S. military decided to incite sectarian violence?

You and I agree on the general conclusions of the stupidity and immorality of the invasion of Iraq. However, I think there are enough good reasons to arrive at this conclusion that we do not need bad reasons. I'm not questioning the whether the Iraq war was stupid or immoral, I'm just questioning certain details which I feel are unnecessary to reach this conclusion, for the sake of keeping the record straight. You said the U.S. military decided to incite sectarian violence. However, I see no evidence of this in the articles you cited and I see no motive to explain why the U.S. would want this or why civil war could not happen on its own without U.S. assistance. Why would the U.S. try to destabilize the interim Iraqi government it helped set up? It seems to me civil war in Iraq was a bad thing for the U.S. no matter how you look at it.

OK. If you have some familiarity with the type of tactics taught to Latin American military officers at the famous School of the Americas in the US, you should recognize that the Shia / Kurd death squads terrorizing Sunni neighbourhoods are identical to those in Guatemala, Chile, Argentina and many other countries where the US has installed pro-capitalist governments (regardless of any other paltry consideration, such as democratic principles or civil liberties). And indeed you probably would recognize this astonishing similarity if it weren't for Americans generally being completely in the dark about what their government actually does.

Now, you could argue that for some reason you believe the US has had a change of heart regarding foreign policy - that it no longer covertly finances, endorses and even provides training for the human rights violations of the world's Pinochets. I don't think that is the case. Do I have concrete evidence to support my opinion that US foreign policy has not changed? Only the fact that the written policy of the US government is not to investigate ANY reports of torture, murder, wrongful detainment or any other atrocity committed by their client government's death squads, no matter how plentiful or abhorrent they might be.

If you can propose another reason for this policy, other than that the US actually APPROVES of the death squads (and, by implication, the resulting sectarian mistrust and violence), I'd love to hear it. Especially if you have evidence, no matter how sketchy, to support it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Do I have concrete evidence to support my opinion that US foreign policy has not changed? Only the fact that the written policy of the US government is not to investigate ANY reports of torture, murder, wrongful detainment or any other atrocity committed by their client government's death squads, no matter how plentiful or abhorrent they might be.

If you can propose another reason for this policy, other than that the US actually APPROVES of the death squads (and, by implication, the resulting sectarian mistrust and violence), I'd love to hear it. Especially if you have evidence, no matter how sketchy, to support it.

Well first, the order was not about reports of "any" atrocity committed by the Iraqi government, it was an order not to investigate reports of torture of detainees by the Iraqi government. Perhaps this is a distinction without a difference. Also, the order came in 2004 after sectarian violence had already started. The U.S. didn't bomb Shi'a festivals or form the anti-Sunni Wolf Brigade. I think the reason for the order was that the U.S. wanted to crush the insurgency, and lacked both the will and capability to prevent torture.

For example, in this article you cited the author notes that Gen. Petraeus knew it would take years to build a "competent Iraqi military officer corps". It sounds like his options were (1) Rely on incompetent pro-government militias until you can train a "competent" corps, or (2) Allow the Sunni insurgency to continue to run amok and unchecked. Neither option sounds promising in terms of reducing sectarian violence. If there had not already existed a large group of extremist Sunnis and Shi'as ready to kill and torture each other, this difficult situation would not have arisen in the first place (neglecting the ill-conceived invasion itself, of course).

 

[Alceste]

Well, Spinkles, I went looking for FRAGO 242 / 039 (either May 2005 or June 2004, depending on who you listen to), and couldn't find it anywhere. All the wikileaks mirror sites direct to the same IP address (since wikileaks has lost its URL, thanks to US meddling) and it doesn't work properly (probably also thanks to US meddling). I also couldn't find the complete text on the internet anywhere, which is odd and annoying since it's such big news - you'd think at least ONE news organization that wrote about it would have printed the text. So I guess there's no way forward.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I appreciate the info Alceste and honestly, we basically agree, my sentiments lay with you, I just want to respect the facts. And I can square the facts with a lax and inexcusable U.S. policy on torture, but I can't square them with deliberately trying to inflame sectarian violence. The press articles I cited in post #68 cover U.S. attempts to weed out the death squads which infiltrated Iraqi forces. Here's an excerpt from the one from the Gaurdian, 2006:

The police in Baghdad and multinational forces are cracking down on militias posing as police amid continuing accusations that members of the Iraqi police service are involved in kidnappings, torture and extra-judicial killings.

A register of police officers, their cars and weapons is being compiled in a pilot scheme in eastern Baghdad. Every officer has been photographed, fingerprinted, and tattoos or scars photographically recorded. The database has also checked the serial numbers of weapons assigned to individual officers against their official ID cards, along with the vehicles they are allowed to drive.

The scheme comes after claims that Shia militia members within the police, or associated with individual officers and stations, are responsible for death squad activity.

US patrols serving with the multinational forces in Baghdad have been instructed to target key districts where allegations of men in police uniforms being involved in extra-judicial killings have been strongest. Troops have been ordered to conduct spot checks on police officers manning check points and confiscate weapons not officially held.

This really doesn't fit the picture of the U.S. as Dark Lord, trying to rip the otherwise close-knit Shi'as and Sunnis apart for no apparent reason. It more fits the picture of the U.S. trying to stitch together an imperfect solution to the very difficult problem of sectarian violence, a problem which the U.S. failed to properly anticipate after an ill-conceived and unjustified invasion. And throw in a dash of not giving a damn about torture.

 

[kai]

why is the US aid only significant and not Arab or Soviet aid

Basically it's more significant, at least in my eyes, when the self declared leader of the free world and democracy funds authoritarian regimes, while full well knowing to what purpose their aid is being used for.

In other words I expect more from the U.S than I do from the Saudis.

I am amazed that aid to Saddam from the Ummah wasnt more significant to members of the Ummah, knowing full well what their aid was going to be used for, like killing other members of the Ummah.

You expect more from the US than you do from the Ummah?

 

[Starsoul]

I'm saying that many politicians are corrupt, and that many ARAB LEADERS are corrupt - as evidenced by the state of the nations they supposedly lead.

offcorse all leaders of the prominent nations today have little credibility in terms of what they do for their people. But that calls for realization on both parts, and coming together on common grounds.

I'd also say that if you're walking in certain areas of Detroit, or New Orleans, or Atlanta, and a gang of black guys starts movinig toward you, you should prudently make plans to avoid them - not because they're black, but because you're likely about to become a victim of crime.

Violence exists in all forms and shapes, be it race, color ,murder, jealousy based or a sectarian violence. But, since sectarian violence in muslim countries is always found to have been ignited to further fuel the distance/difference between two sects by outside elements in efforts to let the country remain destabilized enough on its own , it just isn't a simple blame game.

None of the apparently involved violent elements ever claim or voice violent sentiment against each other. None of the culprits ever get found, nobody claims responsibility, UN, US have never done anything to stop this kind of violence, actually they arent even interested in dealing with it, 'let them die' is the approach. offcros its still a mystery how such calculated well organized sectarian violence still occurs in Iraq.

And I believe we should use more profiling in our airports for security purposes.

In other words, use common sense.

Racial profiling or what? This i don't agree with. Us literally scans every cell of your existence and is offended to go through the same treatment in other countries. I'm not saying security should be overlooked, but security is for all.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well, Spinkles, I went looking for FRAGO 242 / 039 (either May 2005 or June 2004, depending on who you listen to), and couldn't find it anywhere. All the wikileaks mirror sites direct to the same IP address (since wikileaks has lost its URL, thanks to US meddling) and it doesn't work properly (probably also thanks to US meddling). I also couldn't find the complete text on the internet anywhere, which is odd and annoying since it's such big news - you'd think at least ONE news organization that wrote about it would have printed the text. So I guess there's no way forward.

Try wikileaks.ch

 

[Alceste]

Try wikileaks.ch

I did.