USA Death Penalty

[PureX]

The judicial system is based on the application of the law. It I rarely concerned with mercy or the further ramifications of it's decision.
The law is established by politicians who are not concerned with justice but with the vagueness of public opinion on their hold on office.

Then we should fix that. Not accommodate it with more irrational policy.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because they don't pose an ongoing existential threat.

But they're a threat to SECURITY, right? If you don't care about justice, only security, then it follows that killing someone who threatens violence - and continues to threaten violence - increases security. So, why not do it?

Because they pose an ongoing existential threat to every other human on Earth.

But justice isn't an issue, only security. So why does it matter how much a threat they pose? Any threat to security can justly be cause for death, right?

And we do not have the right to impose that threat on everyone else for the sake of our own personal moral imperatives.

Oh, we don't have that right? Based on what concept? For the sake of security, or the sake of justice?

 

[PureX]

But they're a threat to SECURITY, right? If you don't care about justice, only security, then it follows that killing someone who threatens violence - and continues to threaten violence - increases security. So, why not do it?


But justice isn't an issue, only security. So why does it matter how much a threat they pose? Any threat to security can justly be cause for death, right?


Oh, we don't have that right? Based on what concept? For the sake of security, or the sake of justice?

I'm pretty sure that when that knee stops jerking and you can think, again, you will be able to answer all these questions for yourself quite easily.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I'm pretty sure that when that knee stops jerking and you can think, again, you will be able to answer all these questions for yourself quite easily.

Dude, you've clearly stated that justice is fiction and that you care about security, but obviously that's not true because you don't support the death penalty for people who simply pose a threat to security (by being convicted of violent crimes rathet than mass homicide) because you recognize that such a punishment would be UNJUST.

So, obviously justice is a factor in determining what punishment is meted out and to whom and for what crime, and you should well be aware that the injustice of killing an innocent man vastly outweighs the the justice of killing the guilty, and your logic that a dead man can't pose any further threat is irrelevant, since the same is true for a violent, but not homicidal, criminal, and yet you reject that as a fitting punishment.

My knees are staying firmly un-jerked, Mr Justice Is Fiction.

 

[metis]

You glossed over the fact that it is support by Torah which derives its authority from HaShem. Therefore if you acknowledge halacha you can only oppose the death penalty by denying its authority.

You only believe what you want to believe. I did not say that capital punishment was forbidden under halacha but that it is limited. Can you actually try to be honest?

 

[Shaul]

You only believe what you want to believe. I did not say that capital punishment was forbidden under halacha but that it is limited. Can you actually try to be honest?

You were the one that introduced halacha into the discussion. It is a fact that halacha has capital punishment in it. If you accept halacha then that includes usages of capital punishment.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Then we should fix that. Not accommodate it with more irrational policy.

Who else can create law.
Countries get the law their people demand through their politicians.
Perhaps the American people are irrational.
Fixing the American people might be difficult.

 

[PureX]

Who else can create law.
Countries get the law their people demand through their politicians.
Perhaps the American people are irrational.
Fixing the American people might be difficult.

Then there is no point to this discussion, as we are not capable of any reasonable solutions.

 

[metis]

You were the one that introduced halacha into the discussion. It is a fact that halacha has capital punishment in it. If you accept halacha then that includes usages of capital punishment.

As usual, you don't deal with what I posted and repeated, thus there's no sense for me to repeat it again as you just twist what I posted, not once but twice.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I'm for the death penalty for the most horrible of crimes and if the person was proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and its done as quickly as possible. I see it more as removing a very dangerous person from society permanently.

As for rehabilitation Not all people want to be rehabilitated.Or they'll fake it so they can get out and continue. I certainly don't believe that serial killers, human traffickers, terrorists, and sex predators should ever be allowed out of prison. Plus what a nightmare for their victims and families that these monsters have been let loose again.

But sure, they're just poor misunderstood people who now see the error of their ways, and they're really super sorry that they molested little kids, or tortured and buried the remains of 10 people in the wilderness, or sold girls into sex slavery.

Rehabilitation is for lesser crimes. Not for people like that.

 

[metis]

I'm for the death penalty for the most horrible of crimes and if the person was proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and its done as quickly as possible. I see it more as removing a very dangerous person from society permanently.

So, we're going to kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

 

[McBell]

So, we're going to kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

I think what they are saying is that we are going to legally kill people who illegally kill people to show that illegally killing people is wrong.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm for the death penalty for the most horrible of crimes and if the person was proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and its done as quickly as possible. I see it more as removing a very dangerous person from society permanently.

If you have a properly functioning judicial and penal system, then life without parole already removes the person from society permanently.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You were the one that introduced halacha into the discussion. It is a fact that halacha has capital punishment in it. If you accept halacha then that includes usages of capital punishment.

The mishna continues: The mitzva to establish a Sanhedrin with the authority to administer capital punishments is in effect both in Eretz Yisrael and outside Eretz Yisrael. A Sanhedrin that executes a transgressor once in seven years is characterized as a destructive tribunal. Since the Sanhedrin would subject the testimony to exacting scrutiny, it was extremely rare for a defendant to be executed. Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya says: This categorization applies to a Sanhedrin that executes a transgressor once in seventy years. Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Akiva say: If we had been members of the Sanhedrin, we would have conducted trials in a manner whereby no person would have ever been executed. Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel says: In adopting that approach, they too would increase the number of murderers among the Jewish people. The death penalty would lose its deterrent value, as all potential murderers would know that no one is ever executed. [Mishnah Makkot 2]

Here the legitimate role of the death penalty seems limited to that of deterrence, not punishment. Given this, and the fact that today's courts seem qualitatively more willing to execute than the Sanhedrin, I'm not at all sure one can use halakhah as justification for capital punishment.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

If you have a properly functioning judicial and penal system, then life without parole already removes the person from society permanently.

I would be all for that...if we had a proper justice system that actually stuck to it, instead of letting them back out a lot sooner then they should have been. Even death penalties get delayed and waffled over, from what I've come to understand.

 

[metis]

Even death penalties get delayed and waffled over, from what I've come to understand.

Even though carrying out the death sentence may be delayed, the certainly are not released into the public.