Vaccinations and Religious Exemptions

[We Never Know]

Hopefully not, but circumcision can have complications.

The risk of serious complications - like severe infections, amputation of the penis, and death - is low, but real. The risk of complications increases if circumcision is done irresponsibly early, e.g. as per Jewish custom.

Edit: and of course, the published complication rates are usually for circumcisions performed by qualified practitioners under typically sterile conditions. They wouldn't include stuff like this:

How 11 New York City Babies Contracted Herpes Through Circumcision | TIME.com

But who are we to second-guess this time-honoured practice? It would be cultural imperialism to suggest that mohels shouldn't suck on babies' open wounds, right?

There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIVinfection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe.

Male circumcision for HIV prevention

 

[We Never Know]

Hopefully not, but circumcision can have complications.

The risk of serious complications - like severe infections, amputation of the penis, and death - is low, but real. The risk of complications increases if circumcision is done irresponsibly early, e.g. as per Jewish custom.

Edit: and of course, the published complication rates are usually for circumcisions performed by qualified practitioners under typically sterile conditions. They wouldn't include stuff like this:

How 11 New York City Babies Contracted Herpes Through Circumcision | TIME.com

But who are we to second-guess this time-honoured practice? It would be cultural imperialism to suggest that mohels shouldn't suck on babies' open wounds, right?

CIRCUMCISION: PROS AND CONS

WHAT ARE THE PROS?
Some of the reasons you may want to circumcise are:
Lowers the risk of urinary tract infections (UTIs) during the first year of life. However, UTIs are rare and can be treated.
Prevents infections under the foreskin. It also prevents persistent tight foreskin. Both of these problems are uncommon and are usually due to pulling back the foreskin too hard or with dirty hands.
Decreases the risk of getting some sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) later in life Reduces the incidence of HIV by about 40%, genital warts by about 35%, and herpes simplex type 2 by about 30%.
Lowers the risk of cancer of the penis. However, good hygiene offers equal protection against this very rare cancer.
Keeps your son's appearance "like other boys" or "like his dad." Boys may not mind looking different from other men in their family. However, they do mind being harassed in the locker room or shower about their foreskin. This could happen if most of their buddies are circumcised.

WHAT ARE THE CONS?
Some of the reasons not to circumcise include:
Problems with surgery. Problems that may occur are skin or bloodstream infections, bleeding, and various surgical accidents. One study showed that 1 of every 500 circumcised newborns suffered a serious side effect.
Pain. The procedure causes some pain. However, the doctor can use a local anesthetic around the area to block the pain.
Cost. You may have to pay for the surgery yourself because many insurance companies do not cover the cost.
You must decide quickly. If you initially decide not to have your son circumcised, and then change your mind after your son is 2 months old, the procedure will require a general anesthesia. So try to make your final decision during the first month of life.
Summit Medical Group

 

[Duke_Leto]

I don't believe that. I've never had a man say anything like that to me, and I've know adult male converts to Judaism who have talked about elements of their experience. It's possible that it was just too personal. Or perhaps it simply was of such a small amount that it was insignificant to them. But honestly, gossip would get around if it were a real problem.

You're female, and I'm somehow guessing religious Jews don't tend to talk about how they feel having sex with women they aren't in a relationship with.

On a related note, how many male converts to Judaism do you even know?

 

[ecco]

@IndigoChild5559 , the point I think @Polymath257 is trying to make, and which I think you’re intentionally ignoring, is that though — as you keep repeating — the penis does work without a foreskin, much of the man’s pleasure is reduced when the foreskin is removed.

While that is a point, it is a point based on inconclusive evidence.

 

[ecco]

Note to forum: this will be the last time I say this, and then I'm bowing out of the circumcision debate, since it's grown way too repetitive.

FGM destroys a body parts natural function -- a woman can no longer enjoy sex. That's not a side effect or when a mistake happens. That is the purpose of FGM. Thus it is classified as mutilation. And it is horrendous.

Circumcision does NOT destroy the penis' natural function -- a man can still urinate, experience pleasure, and father children. Thus, it is cosmetic only, rather than mutilation. I have no problems with it.

Hmmm, not a word about "culture" in your last half dozen posts. Before that, everything was about culture...

Culture rules.

Culture rules.

sentient beings with culture.

It has to do with the way culture works.

And if it weren't this way, we wouldn't have culture,

Culture is what has given us control over nature,

American culture is pretty strong

You are a product of your own culture.

Because I am a culture within the culture,

If, as you have repeatedly asserted, culture is supposed to dominate, then there is nothing wrong with clitorectomies.

 

[ecco]

Meanwhile, back to the OP...

U.S. Measles Cases Hit 465 -- And Most Are Kids

A frightening 78 new cases of measles were reported across the country just in the last week
At least 465 cases of measles have been reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) since the beginning of the year, putting the United States on track to have its worst year for the dangerous and deadly disease perhaps in decades. Just last week, the number ballooned from 387, with 78 new cases reported from coast to coast.​

 

[Jumi]

Meanwhile, back to the OP...

It is truly insane that measles is making a comeback, in the west of all places.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The point is that it's reversible.

My point is that culture rules.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hopefully not, but circumcision can have complications.

Letting your child climb trees can cause injuries. Life is dangerous.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

On a related note, how many male converts to Judaism do you even know?

An awful lot. I'm actually surprised just what a significant minority of my synagogue is converts, since we don't go out and proseletyze. We don't even pressure Gentiles who come to visit.

Part of is is the Messianic Jewish movement. I hate to say it, but it hasn't worked out the way its founders expected. Instead of coaxing Jews into the Church, it has attracted scads of Gentiles. Most are content getting just the tidbits of Judaism they find in the Torah readings and Shabbat candle lightings. But inevitably there are Gentiles that go to MJ congregations and after a while, a taste is not enough. They are attracted to the Judaism and they want to meat. And so they end up on our doors. I've read that somewhere between 70-80% of converts to Judaism come through the MJ movement.

And part of it just seems to be my own specific congregation. We just have a very welcoming attitude. We have a choir that is open to the community, and so gets Christians in it from time to time. And of course we have many intermarrieds. We put no pressure on them -- they are fine as they are. But we offer education to them, so that they have a better understanding of what it means for their spouse to be a Jew. Over the course of many years, they simply reach a point where they simply feel more at home in our synagogue than in their church, and they go through conversion. My goodness, every Gentile in the choir has either converted or is now converting except one. Our organist remains Christian. He jokes that if he converted, they would have to find another organist, since he couldn't work on the Sabbath LOL.

I don't think outsiders realize the richness and depth of Judaism. It's one of those things that "you had to be there."

I'll tell you what. There are two men I know of that are currently converting. I will delicately bring up the subject after the procedure. They may wish to keep it personal. But at least I will have inquired directly.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hmmm, not a word about "culture" in your last half dozen posts. Before that, everything was about culture...
If, as you have repeatedly asserted, culture is supposed to dominate, then there is nothing wrong with clitorectomies.

As I have said in many, many, many other posts, FGM destroys the ability of the the body to have a natural function. IOW it harms (unlike circumcision). We cross cultural lines to protect from harm.

Please do not respond to me any more on this issue. I have bowed out. It is such a thought loop that it is like a bad weed trip -- completely non-productive.

Plus, I am not my normal patient self when I have pneumonia.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Letting your child climb trees can cause injuries. Life is dangerous.

So you acknowledge the harm? You agree that circumcision can be dangerous?

 

[SkepticThinker]

My point is that culture rules.

I don't agree, obviously. I'm not into moral relativism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My point is that culture rules.

No, that's the opposite of what you're saying. You're arguing that a Jew in a culture where circumcision is frowned upon should be allowed to circumcise his male children anyway.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't agree, obviously. I'm not into moral relativism.

I think that there are some morals that transcend culture. I am not a relativist. For example, I think that rape is wrong regardless of the culture. However, the list of shared morals is quite small compared to the endless list of variations.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, that's the opposite of what you're saying. You're arguing that a Jew in a culture where circumcision is frowned upon should be allowed to circumcise his male children anyway.

Jews in a culture where circumcision is frowned upon still follow *Jewish culture*, not the surrounding culture. You are neglecting to acknowledge subcultures. A culture is those things you learn, consciously or unconsciously, growing up. A Jewish child learns circumcision is part of being a Jew.

 

[ecco]

Please do not respond to me any more on this issue. I have bowed out. It is such a thought loop that it is like a bad weed trip -- completely non-productive.

I was going to respect your request but it seems you want to continue pursuing the issue.

As I have said in many, many, many other posts, FGM destroys the ability of the the body to have a natural function. IOW it harms (unlike circumcision). We cross cultural lines to protect from harm.

But that is different from what you have been asserting all along - see post #445

IndigoChild5559 said over many posts...​

Culture rules.
Culture rules.

IndigoChild5559
sentient beings with culture.

IndigoChild5559
It has to do with the way culture works.

IndigoChild5559
And if it weren't this way, we wouldn't have culture,

IndigoChild5559
Culture is what has given us control over nature,

IndigoChild5559
American culture is pretty strong

IndigoChild5559
You are a product of your own culture.

IndigoChild5559
Because I am a culture within the culture,

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think that there are some morals that transcend culture. I am not a relativist. For example, I think that rape is wrong regardless of the culture. However, the list of shared morals is quite small compared to the endless list of variations.

I agree that many morals transcend culture. I just think my list is longer than yours, and includes rights over one's own body, while yours apparently does not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I agree that many morals transcend culture. I just think my list is longer than yours, and includes rights over one's own body, while yours apparently does not.

That would probably be correct. For example, if there is a deadly epidemic of some kind, I would support involuntary vaccinations (meaning the quarantine of those refusing).

 

[Neutral Name]

I'd like to see a discussion about vaccinations and exemptions, mostly the religious ones, but also exemptions on any grounds. I've placed this in the Science and Religion section, but remember that the overwhelming majority of religious people such as myself vaccinate.

I strongly believe in vaccinations and my grandson has autism. My son and his wife are undergoing genetic testing to determine if they could have another child without autism. Also, why is it never stated that Dr. Wakefield was fraudulent. "It took nearly six months but the General Medical Council (GMC) in the U.K. has pulled Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s license to practice medicine in the United Kingdom. In February, editors of the Lancet retracted Wakefield’s controversial paper, telling the Guardian. It was utterly clear, without any ambiguity at all, that the statements in the paper were utterly false.” Time Magazine May 24, 2010. Harm is being done to children by not having them vaccinated.