Vaccines aren't mentioned in the Bible!

[Mindmaster]

I really hate to let you know? But all water supplies-- bottled or otherwise (the sole exception is distilled) contain minute traces of mercury.

Meaning? All Food Sources do too. No exceptions.

This is because mercury is everywhere. Literally everywhere. If you are typical? And do not eat top-predator fish (i.e. Tuna, Bass, etc) every day?

You contain about as much mercury as an average sample of farm dirt. Maybe a wee bit more, as humans are Top Predators too.

You ain't getting away from this stuff--- it's everywhere on earth, in everything you drink and in every bite you eat.

Don't worry about it: We all evolved to have trace amounts in our bodies.... just like all other mammals, in fact...

Trace amounts are unavoidable, honestly. BUUUUT, you can put fancy filtration on your water and greatly limit your intake. (which is what I do, main concern being lead from water piping... the fact that it also eliminates mercury and others is just a bonus) Personally, I avoid all the heavy metals as much as possible all of them are linked to health problems. An occasional tuna sandwich or other seafood isn't going to compare to the intake you can get through water via constant exposure/consumption. You drink several liters of water a day your couple of oz of tuna isn't really gonna make a long term difference. The amount of Omega 3 from the fish would outweigh the tiny amounts of mercury in comparison, as far as your health. I still wouldn't eat it frequently, but once a week wouldn't make a difference at all.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I dunno if he is saying that, but....I am. Or at least, if a Creator God leaves anything AT ALL to do its "own thing," in which it is at all possible to take a path different from that which is programmed (and baby sat) into it, then....no.

"Evil,' when it is boiled down, is simply the 'less optimal choice." Any time there is a possibility of making a choice, then evil exists. Suppose your kid has a choice between getting a red balloon or a green one, and he chooses the green one. Why? Perhaps all his reasons are good ones, or at least neutral ones; it looks better with her dress, or she knows her friend wants the red one and your kid wants to make her friend happy. Very good; good is chosen. However, that means choosing the red balloon is 'evil,' being the lesser choice. Not very evil, certainly, and in another circumstance or time, the red balloon would be the better choice. However, whenever there IS a choice, one option will be more optimal than the other, which makes the other...'evil.'

The only way to avoid it is to make sure there is no choice available for anybody or anything.

Which means that the Creator God Who invented such a world put evil into it deliberately and with malice aforethought. Now I wonder: which version of God would be, er....more evil?



Well, your version of 'all good' might not be an accurate representation. After all, when I was six my parents made me get polio shots (and very shortly thereafter, the stuff on the sugar cubes). From my perspective, I thought they were evil personified. Certainly they weren't "all good,' because they allowed me to GET HURT. More than allowed, they deliberately made me stand in line for an hour so that someone in a white coat could jab me....and they made me do it THREE TIMES.

No way could you have convinced me that they were 'good' to do this.

I was extremely envious of my cousin, whose parents didn't make HER stand in line; they listened to her tantrums and put it off.

Do I need to tell you the ending of this little story? You know, the obvious one about how she got polio and I didn't? We were inseparable. If she was exposed to polio, so was I...but my parents, those evil, incompetent people, saw to it that I didn't get polio.

but you couldn't tell me at six that this was so, even after my cousin got sick and I didn't.

Actually, it only makes you...and others who have this same view...about six, relatively, if it doesn't make us all amoebas as compared to Einstein. It's not that I'm defending my view of God, mind you. It's just that if there IS a Creator God, He created the whole, y'know, UNIVERSE? One can pretty much figure that Someone (or Something) that did that knows...and understands...a bit more than we do. As in, on an entirely different level of comprehension, as well as a perspective of time and events that makes us look like mayflies arguing the motives of the fish that will eat them that night.

it also makes us look like hubris personified. I mean, really? ONE planet among billions, in one galaxy among billions..and is this the only universe?

And you are expecting God to adhere to YOUR opinion of how He should run things and still be 'all good?"

As to being 'all powerful,'...well, a being who can't choose NOT to do something isn't exactly all powerful, is he? In fact, a being who MUST do everything you think CAN be done isn't powerful at all.[/QUOTE]

The above series of Logical Fallacies?

Is easily summed up: Black Or White Simplicity.

Or more formally False Dichotomy.

A Classic Theist Error.

Your god? Is inept. Your worldview? Lost in 100% or 0% failure to think.

Sadly for you? The world is neither 0% nor 100%-- it's always-- no exception-- somewhere in the middle.

Take your balloon analogy: You classify it as 100% good or 100% evil. When it is neither good nor evil-- the balloon choice? Is neutral to both concepts because it doesn't matter, apart from individual feelings.

The choice can only be Evil or Good, if someone else is directly affected in a positive or negative way-- and can only affect the individual of they were forced to choose, rather than being allowed.

You keep forgetting that according to you? Your god deliberately and with Willful Intent, Designed Humans To Be As They Are.

Thus, any and all "choices" humans make? Are directly the responsibility of their designer, and Free Will does not enter into this fact.

Oooops!

Reality is seldom 100% good or 100% evil.... most of the time? It is both good AND evil combined.

Just as people are never all Good or all Evil-- but both.

If your god "made" us? Your god made us BOTH GOOD AND EVIL.

ooops again!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Trace amounts are unavoidable, honestly. BUUUUT, you can put fancy filtration on your water and greatly limit your intake. (which is what I do, main concern being lead from water piping... the fact that it also eliminates mercury and others is just a bonus) Personally, I avoid all the heavy metals as much as possible all of them are linked to health problems. An occasional tuna sandwich or other seafood isn't going to compare to the intake you can get through water via constant exposure/consumption. You drink several liters of water a day your couple of oz of tuna isn't really gonna make a long term difference. The amount of Omega 3 from the fish would outweigh the tiny amounts of mercury in comparison, as far as your health. I still wouldn't eat it frequently, but once a week wouldn't make a difference at all.

Do you eat vegetables? You get mercury. Even if you grow your own? You get mercury.

This is because vegetables will get mercury from rain, ground water, etc. And they take it in---- most put it into peripherals, like.... leaves.... or fruit... or flowers....

What parts of most vegetables do we typically eat?

Finally? You get many times the amount of mercury from eating Top Predator Fish, than you get from a typical tap in a typical city.

Finally? What sort of filter do you use? Unless you are distilling water, or using Reverse Osmosis? You are only filtering particulates. A substitution "filter" (water softener) will also remove some, but it simply substitutes sodium chloride for those (common salt). Some consider that useful-- and it can be-- but you're still not removing all the metals...

It is a common myth that activated charcoal will remove metal from water (lead, mercury, cadmium, etc). That would only be true, if the metal in question was in the form of fine particulates.

Note: All the portable "water pitcher" filters? Charcoal and filter media. Reverse osmosis typically requires electricity. Distillation certainly does.

Rare. Most metal is dissolved as metal salts.....

 

[Mindmaster]

[QUOTE="Bob the Unbeliever, post: 5563297, member: 61845"

It is a common myth that activated charcoal will remove metal from water (lead, mercury, cadmium, etc). That would only be true, if the metal in question was in the form of fine particulates.

Note: All the portable "water pitcher" filters? Charcoal and filter media. Reverse osmosis typically requires electricity. Distillation certainly does.

Rare. Most metal is dissolved as metal salts.....[/QUOTE]

Nah, I have a very expensive system that would remove all of these. Good filtration systems have lab tested data sheets. RO systems can work if they're the higher end ones, not the cheap stuff though (brita, etc...) Your system should publish microns of harmful biologicals it filters, exactly the chemicals it filters out, etc. If it doesn't, it probably isn't doing it. To list what I take out of my water would take pages of this thread, but suffice to say if the filters don't come with a spec sheet they're immediately suspect I had a RO filter that used to take out everything and leave you with water with zero TDS (effectively distilled water), but rolled that back to a system that leaves trace minerals that you're supposed to get. You can have too much filtration....

Basically, I drink heavy-metal free, chlorine free, and fluoride free water - it also filters out viruses, cysts, and all of the common bacterial contaminants. No system is 100%, so you need spec sheets to figure out if it is doing what you want. Even the best systems out there will only filter 99.9% of harmful agents. It's not that you're ever going to get perfection, just reduce your exposure to irrelevant levels.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

As in, on an entirely different level of comprehension, as well as a perspective of time and events that makes us look like mayflies arguing the motives of the fish that will eat them that night.

False analogy. As far as anyone can test? Mayflies are not self-aware.

Once you pass over the threshold of Self Awareness?

All Bets Are Off-- and we can comprehend what gods think.

For example: I lack the Maths to really get String Theory. But that does not mean I cannot understand String Theory at all.

Your analogy assumes Zero or 100%-- False Dichotomy Logical Fallacy.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Nah, I have a very expensive system that would remove all of these. Good filtration systems have lab tested data sheets. RO systems can work if they're the higher end ones, not the cheap stuff though (brita, etc...) Your system should publish microns of harmful biologicals it filters, exactly the chemicals it filters out, etc. If it doesn't, it probably isn't doing it. To list what I take out of my water would take pages of this thread, but suffice to say if the filters don't come with a spec sheet they're immediately suspect I had a RO filter that used to take out everything and leave you with water with zero TDS (effectively distilled water), but rolled that back to a system that leaves trace minerals that you're supposed to get. You can have too much filtration....

Basically, I drink heavy-metal free, chlorine free, and fluoride free water - it also filters out viruses, cysts, and all of the common bacterial contaminants. No system is 100%, so you need spec sheets to figure out if it is doing what you want.

Excellent! And I am absolutely serious here-- you do get it. You are rare, among humans. Ha!

Sadly, most folk are clueless when it comes to water filtration. Yes, Brita filters can improve the taste, but that's about it.

And there are some more high-tech filters than can safely remove all biological contaminants (i.e. for hiking, wilderness camping, etc)-- but they have zero effect on dissolved metals.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

... , and fluoride free water - ...

It can be proven that fluoride does far more good than harm.

Proof? Teeth in communities who routinely use fluoride versus communities who do not.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

And you are expecting God to adhere to YOUR opinion of how He should run things and still be 'all good?"

No-- I expect a certain level of basic Ethics and Morality from any being worthy of the title "god".

This Minimum Standard is far higher than described by any so-called "holy" book, most especially the bible and/or the quoran.

If there is a "god"? It is neither good nor evil-- provably so. See above.

As to being 'all powerful,'...well, a being who can't choose NOT to do something isn't exactly all powerful, is he? In fact, a being who MUST do everything you think CAN be done isn't powerful at all.

Go look up "all powerful". It literally means "All The Power"-- which leaves none left over for Other Things.

Like.... Free Will. Free Will-- make no mistake-- is an Exercise Of Power (however modest).

If there is an All Powerful Being operating in the same Universe?

Free Will cannot possibly exist-- unless the All Powerful gives up some--

--- making it no longer All Powerful. It is now Mostly Powerful.

It could even be that it has given up so much Power to enable Free Will? It has fallen down to the status of merely Sort Of Powerful.

Or even, Used To Have Power-- But Mostly Doesn't, Now.

ooops! That kinda ruins all these "Holey" books I get thrown my way as "proof of god"...

 

[Mindmaster]

Excellent! And I am absolutely serious here-- you do get it. You are rare, among humans. Ha!

Sadly, most folk are clueless when it comes to water filtration. Yes, Brita filters can improve the taste, but that's about it.

And there are some more high-tech filters than can safely remove all biological contaminants (i.e. for hiking, wilderness camping, etc)-- but they have zero effect on dissolved metals.

The hiking products are just for emergency use. They figure you are going to die from dehydration or biologicals before anything else. A good system is just too heavy to carry around. Mine is about 30-40 pounds of crap, I can't imagine lugging that on a trip unless I was on an RV or a boat. Datasheets are the thing though, most reputable filter system sellers (even in the hiking department) are going to give you the details. If those details are missing something is up.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The hiking products are just for emergency use. They figure you are going to die from dehydration or biologicals before anything else. A good system is just too heavy to carry around. Mine is about 30-40 pounds of crap, I can't imagine lugging that on a trip unless I was on an RV or a boat. Datasheets are the thing though, most reputable filter system sellers (even in the hiking department) are going to give you the details. If those details are missing something is up.

Oh, I agree-- but once in awhile there comes along a Technology that really does live up to (mostly) it's Hype.

I've seen some wilderness "straws" that really do remove enough biologicals, that they can render any water safe (enough) to drink (but I wouldn't feed a sick, old or infant on it).

The kicker with these? They are not renewable, and they have a maximum volume through them-- once you exceed that? Their efficacy diminishes, some faster than others.

In camping, we always put water into a container, leave it overnight, then boil the settled water (you carefully and slooooowly pour it out into another pan, for boiling).

Yes, there remain dissolved metals, but in truth? It is quite rare for that to be an issue in most areas of the USA. There are notable exceptions, such as Flint, but even there? That's due to "downstream contamination" not the source water.

Boiling is always better than unboiled, if you are doing the wilderness shtick.

 

[Mindmaster]

It can be proven that fluoride does far more good than harm.

Proof? Teeth in communities who routinely use fluoride versus communities who do not.

It's fine to use it when you're brushing your teeth, it helps.

But, consuming it? Nah... it interferes with endocrine systems in the body. (thryroid, pineal gland, and others) I'll pass, I have enough problems. You get the amount you need of it orally just from brushing your teeth a couple of times a day and spitting the water out.

 

[dianaiad]

False analogy. As far as anyone can test? Mayflies are not self-aware.

Once you pass over the threshold of Self Awareness?

All Bets Are Off-- and we can comprehend what gods think.

For example: I lack the Maths to really get String Theory. But that does not mean I cannot understand String Theory at all.

Your analogy assumes Zero or 100%-- False Dichotomy Logical Fallacy.

Indeed? Well, I rather imagine that my dog might, in his own way, might know what I think, too. Except of course he doesn't.

 

[dianaiad]

False analogy. As far as anyone can test? Mayflies are not self-aware.

Once you pass over the threshold of Self Awareness?

All Bets Are Off-- and we can comprehend what gods think.

For example: I lack the Maths to really get String Theory. But that does not mean I cannot understand String Theory at all.

Your analogy assumes Zero or 100%-- False Dichotomy Logical Fallacy.

No, it doesn't, actually. it just puts us far lower on the spectrum of intellectual ability and knowledge than you might be comfortable with.

I don't understand my kids when they attempt to teach me how my smartphone can do everything from run my TV to film and upload videos, from tracking my schedule to automatically calling someone when I tell it to...and relaying a recorded message.

(shrug) They aren't smarter than me, but they do know more, and if THAT flurmuggles me, how much more would the knowledge and ability of a creator God (and notice that I did not specify the One I happen to believe in...that's a whole 'nuther conversation) be beyond humans AT THE MOMENT?

Perhaps someday we will figure it out, but...that day is not this day.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

"Potato salad" isn't mentioned in the Bible either, but it shows up at every church pot luck.

Don't forget fried chicken. Particularly at southern church potlucks

 

[dianaiad]

No-- I expect a certain level of basic Ethics and Morality from any being worthy of the title "god".

This Minimum Standard is far higher than described by any so-called "holy" book, most especially the bible and/or the quoran.

If there is a "god"? It is neither good nor evil-- provably so. See above.



Go look up "all powerful". It literally means "All The Power"-- which leaves none left over for Other Things.

Like.... Free Will. Free Will-- make no mistake-- is an Exercise Of Power (however modest).

If there is an All Powerful Being operating in the same Universe?

Free Will cannot possibly exist-- unless the All Powerful gives up some--

--- making it no longer All Powerful. It is now Mostly Powerful.

It could even be that it has given up so much Power to enable Free Will? It has fallen down to the status of merely Sort Of Powerful.

Or even, Used To Have Power-- But Mostly Doesn't, Now.

ooops! That kinda ruins all these "Holey" books I get thrown my way as "proof of god"...

Uhmn....

Suppose that you are in charge of a room full of teenagers, and you have the power to make absolutely certain that NONE of them have cell phones that they can use. (I used to be a teacher. I know about that sort of power). Suppose that you decide to allow them to use their cell phones, provided they do so quietly, after they are finished with a test. You tell them that if they break that simple rule, you will take their cell phone away and they won't get it back until their parents come to get it from the principal's office.

Someone starts texting someone else in the classroom and they get giggly. You take the phones away.

Now tell me: have you given up one iota of your power because you have ALLOWED the kids to have cell phones, and to experience the consequences of misusing them?

Your definition of 'all powerful' is anything but; simply because a Being has the power to do anything logically possible doesn't mean that he MUST do everything logically possible, or that nobody else can do anything at all. Where you got that definition is beyond me; I've never seen it before.

As to 'omnibenevolent..." I take it you didn't read my polio vaccine story? Are you telling me that my parents were evil simply because I thought they were at the time I got shots (and polio shots hurt...at least I thought so)? Which set of parents were, in the end, more benevolent...the pair that made me get shots, which hurt briefly but kept me from getting polio, or the set that allowed their kid to avoid the shots, and as a result she had to deal with polio? Which was worse for that child; the three injections, or the year of school she lost, the months and years of physical therapy and pain she had to deal with in order to learn to walk again....or now, decades after everybody thought she was all better, having to deal with post polio syndrome?

I mean, the answer would be obvious NOW, to us....but not to the children we were at the time. Indeed, it took me quite awhile to 'get' the point.

An omnipotent being MUST have the ability to do...or not to do...anything He wishes, and that would include the ability to NOT do something, or even to not KNOW something, if He wants to give His creations (or, as I believe, His children) the ability to learn stuff on our own and to make our own choices. Yes, He COULD remove our freedom to choose.

I believe that He has chosen (omnipotent) to allow us our freedom to make choices. An omnipotent deity would have to be able to do that, or else he isn't omnipotent.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It's fine to use it when you're brushing your teeth, it helps.

But, consuming it? Nah... it interferes with endocrine systems in the body. (thryroid, pineal gland, and others) I'll pass, I have enough problems. You get the amount you need of it orally just from brushing your teeth a couple of times a day and spitting the water out.

Except? It has no measurable effect (in spite of what you just said) in the minute trace amounts in water-- this is because it's similar to Chlorine (which you absolutely require to exist, and get in salt) and the body treats it the same.

It has zero effect on the body. None. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Or the same studies that proved it helps prevent tooth decay? Would have shown negative effects.

Florine isn't delivered as a dangerous gas anyway, it's as a salt (like sodium chloride).

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Indeed? Well, I rather imagine that my dog might, in his own way, might know what I think, too. Except of course he doesn't.

False Correlation. Is your dog self-aware like a human is?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, it doesn't, actually. it just puts us far lower on the spectrum of intellectual ability and knowledge than you might be comfortable with.

I don't understand my kids when they attempt to teach me how my smartphone can do everything from run my TV to film and upload videos, from tracking my schedule to automatically calling someone when I tell it to...and relaying a recorded message.

(shrug) They aren't smarter than me, but they do know more, and if THAT flurmuggles me, how much more would the knowledge and ability of a creator God (and notice that I did not specify the One I happen to believe in...that's a whole 'nuther conversation) be beyond humans AT THE MOMENT?

Perhaps someday we will figure it out, but...that day is not this day.

Ignoring my point, and adding irrelevancies? Doesn't help your argument, such as it is.

Once someone learns that Magic Is Not Real?

They are never--ever content with the word "It's Magic" again-- they may be bamboozled by a Clever Trick? (as you are by a smartphone).

But they don't think it's Magic-- they understand that it is simply a Trick-- technology of some kind that they haven't bothered to understand.

So. We are back to YOUR PROBLEM: you believe in a god who is INCOMPETENT, because it cannot manage to create Humans without Evil.

Oooops!

 

[dianaiad]

False Correlation. Is your dog self-aware like a human is?

Define 'self aware,' Bob.

 

[dianaiad]

Ignoring my point, and adding irrelevancies? Doesn't help your argument, such as it is.

Once someone learns that Magic Is Not Real?

They are never--ever content with the word "It's Magic" again-- they may be bamboozled by a Clever Trick? (as you are by a smartphone).

But they don't think it's Magic-- they understand that it is simply a Trick-- technology of some kind that they haven't bothered to understand.

So. We are back to YOUR PROBLEM: you believe in a god who is INCOMPETENT, because it cannot manage to create Humans without Evil.

Oooops!

Let's see....what is it that whosits said about magic and technology....

Oh, yeah. The third of Clark's three laws:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Wouldn't a Creator God be the ultimate Master of 'advanced technology,' given that He, supposedly, created the laws technology uses?

I have to admit that every time we humans figure out how something works, I am tickled....and I have a suspicion that god is, too. At least, if my beliefs about Him are correct, He is.

That does NOT, however, mean that we understand and can judge His motives and actions from our present perspectives any more than I could judge those of my parents when I was six.