Vaishnava identity

[Talmai]

Hello! I have a respectful question that I would like to ask.

What is it that makes a person a Vaishnava? In asking this question I do not intend to start a debate. I just want to know who is a Vaishnava according to Vaishnavic perspectives.

Thank you.

 

[StarryNightshade]

At the most basic level, a Vaishnava is one who accepts Vishnu (or Krishna) as supreme; accepting certain scriptures such as the Bhagavad Gita, certain Puranas, sometimes the Srimad Bhagavadtam, etc; and possessing certain qualities like compassion, ahimsa, etc.

Certain details like rituals, philosophy, culture, gurus, etc., depends on lineage or school.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A whole multitude of Hindus are hidden Vaishnavas, though they may not want to be identified as such. For example, I am an atheist, but very attached to the story of Lord Rama, who is considered an avatara/incarnation of Lord Vishnu. So, in a way, I too am a Vaishnava.

 

[Terese]

Hello! I have a respectful question that I would like to ask.

What is it that makes a person a Vaishnava? In asking this question I do not intend to start a debate. I just want to know who is a Vaishnava according to Vaishnavic perspectives.

Thank you.

Pranam Talmaiji, what a lovely question to ask! Vaishnavism is the worship of Lord Vishnu and His avataras eg Lord Krishna, Lord Rama as Supreme. Worshiping any other gods other than Vasudeva does not make one a Vaishnava.

 

[Terese]

Are there any other questions you would love to tell us?

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Hello! I have a respectful question that I would like to ask.

What is it that makes a person a Vaishnava? In asking this question I do not intend to start a debate. I just want to know who is a Vaishnava according to Vaishnavic perspectives.

Thank you.

By definition, Vaishnava = worshiper of Vishnu. However, in practice, there is more to it. For instance, Smarthas worship Vishnu/Krishna too, but they are not considered Vaishnavas because they refuse to accept a hierarchy of gods (with Vishnu on top). The Smartha places them all at the same level.

So, it would appear that Vaishnava = worshiper of Vishnu + accepts a hierarchy of gods with Vishnu as Supreme.

 

[Talmai]

Thanks everyone for your kindness and your answers. I am thankful.

I had to ask because I am once again looking for what can give me fulfillment on many levels.

 

[Talmai]

Are there any other questions you would love to tell us?

Yes, thank you.

What do the words pranam and ji mean? The greeting you gave me made me feel good and honoured, and I only read it.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Very awesome answers by everyone! I agree with them. There are many criterion for who is a Vaishnav or not.

Lord Chaitanya has given the following definition of a Vaishnav:

prabhu-kare, 'yanra mukhe suni eka-bara
krsna-nama, sei pujya, srestha sabakara

The Lord said "If one can hear the name of Krsna from their mouth even once, such a person is worship-able. exalted and a Vaishanav"

krsna-nama nirantara yanhara vadane
se vaisnava-srestha, bhaja tanhara carane

"A person who is always chanting the holy name of the Krishna is a superior Vaishnava and your duty is to serve His lotus feet."

yanhara darsane mukhe aise krsna-nama
tanhare janiha tumi vaisnava-pradhana

"The topmost Vaishnava is He/She whose very presence makes others chant the holy name of Krishna. Such a Vaishnava is superior to all others!"

There is a beautiful song written by Narottama das where He glorifies Vaishnavs so beautifully:

ei-bāro karuṇā koro vaiṣṇava gosāi
patita-pāvana tomā bine keho nāi

"Please be merciful to me, O Vaishnav Gosai (Gosai, short for Goswami means one who had mastered the senses). There is no-one who can purify the fallen like You"

jāhāra nikaṭe gele pāpa dūre jāy
emona doyāla prabhu kebā kothā pāy

"Whoever comes close to you, their sins wash away. Where else can such a merciful personality be found?"

gańgāra paraśa hoile paścate pāvan
darśane pavitra koro-ei tomāra guṇ

"By repeated bathing in the Ganga (Holy River in India), one can be purified. However, even seeing You once purifies one completely. In who else can we find such a quality?

hari-sthāne aparādhe tāre hari-nām
tomā sthāne aparādhe nāhi paritrāṇ

Offenses against Lord Vishnu Himself can be removed by chanting His Holy Name. However there is no deliverance for offenses against You.

tomāra hṛdoye sadā govinda-viśrām
govinda kohena-mora vaiṣṇava parāṇ

Lord Govinda (Krsna) always rests in Your heart. He says "My Vaishnavs are in my heart also"

prati-janme kori āśā caraṇera dhūli
narottame koro doyā āpanāra boli'

"In every life, I simply desire the dust of Your feet. Please be merciful on Narottama, consider him Your own"

 

[Aupmanyav]

What do the words pranam and ji mean? The greeting you gave me made me feel good and honoured, and I only read it.

'Pranama' means 'I bow to you' or more correctly 'I bow to the Supreme in you'.
'Ji' is the Hindi word to honor a person, like Esq. in English.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The best definition of a Vaishnava is given in a hymn by a Krishna devotee of 15th Century, Narsi Mehta also known as Narsi Bhagat. The hymn was a favorite of Mahatma Gandhi.

"Vaiṣṇava jana to tene kahiye, pīḍa parāyī jāṇe re;
para duḥkhe upakāra kare to, mana abhimāna na āṇe re."

Call those people Vaishnavas, who feel the pain of others;
help those who are in misery, but never let self-conceit enter their mind.

The full hymn is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishnava_Jana_To
Narsinh Mehta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narsinh_Mehta

 

[Terese]

Yes, thank you.

What do the words pranam and ji mean? The greeting you gave me made me feel good and honoured, and I only read it.

It's fantastic that I made you feel good and honoured! Pranam is a greeting, and would be done by putting my hands together and then touching your feet. Ji is a friendly and respectful title for a person, like how one says 'doctor robert' to a person

 

[ShivaFan]

There is a shadow of pain in you. A sense of "lack". Sometimes you may say you are "suffering".

What is the difference between your vision - and reaction - to the color red, and the concept of color itself?

When you ARE a Vaishnava, it is not just one color. That in itself is somewhat "difficult" to explain - for example, tell me what is red?

I guess you could say, cherries are that color, and so is blood. Then someone who needs to learn red might think, "oh, I drank the juice of cherries and it was sweet... so red must be sweet in description... and if I drink blood, it is also sweet..."

... but no. Red is a color. A cherry is more than a color. But red can be found "everywhere" and about and on, within, outside, many, many things. In one way - all things. After all, you can have black, but if you mix red with green with yellow with magenta with blue with pink... you end up with black. So red is in there, but you cannot see it. But some just know it. But would you describe red as black?

In Vaishnavism we can find many, many colors - bhavas, rasas, lilas. Where feelings of separation can mean union, for example.

So Vaisnava does not mean one. As in one color. Rather is means the concept of color itself. It is experiencing it to be conceptualised - you understand "the concept of color" which is vast, many, not one - AS ONE.

A Vaisnava does not "explain" the concept of color itself like a iecture, though they do like to talk about all these bhavas and lilas and rasas and so on. Rather they ACT and LIVE in the concept of color.

The word Vishnu is in Vaishnav. "Of Vishnu". This is the Concept of God. They start by Vishnu or some Form of Vishnu either before, now, or in the future. Because Vishnu was not only engaged within, but has, had and will have many adventures outside. So a Vaishnava tends to then be looking outside. At those adventures. These become realtime eclipses with their own life, experiences.

So that is one "special" thing about Valshnavs. Not that they don't look inside, but they really do look outside in a big way.

Some yogis only look inside. But IMHO, that yogi is not a Vaishava. They tend to mostly look outside, the Vaishnava, it starts like a treasure hunt. To find a gem, like Krishna for example. But it is not exactly a "search". It is a participation - with others already on the stage. Each has a part to play.

Every single soul has a second of fame to the entire world. But the fame of a Vaishnava is being famous for loving someone else. Therefore it is also a form of detachment by means of attachment through attraction to God or attachment to a darling. The Darl is in the Darling. The prema is many facet. Many colors. They tend to be a light show of colors. Thus, in this light show, they tend to sometimes forget the world.

When they tend to forget the world and go about here and there, in all these bhavas, lilas, rasas involing some aspect of Vishnu, and they may cry, or laugh, or sing, or smile and forget to go to work, or such forgetfulness - then THEY ARE A VAISHNAVA.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I had to ask because I am once again looking for what can give me fulfillment on many levels.

The Hindu reply will be 'just try to fulfill your responsibilities to the best of your capability and engage in righteous action'. Leave the rest (if you are a theist) to God. Do not demand anything from him.

This is known as 'Nishkama karma', action without a desire. This is advocated by Lord Krishna in BhagawadGita.

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Namaste,

What is it that makes a person a Vaishnava?

This question is bound to have diverse (but not necessarily contradictory) answers based on (usually) slightly different interpretation of parameters found in the śāstras (~scriptures) that are considered authoritative by different vaiṣṇava saṁpradāya (~schools) - mainly four - Śrī-Vaiṣṇava propagated by Śrī Rāmānuja, Sat-Vaiṣṇava propagated by Śrī Madhva, Puṣṭi-mārga by Śrī Vallabha, and Śrī Nimbarka saṁpradāya.

According to Śri Madhva's saṁpradāya (tattvavāda/dvaita) a vaiṣṇava is one who:

• Understands vedas, pancarātra, itihāsa, purāṇa, thru systematic unbiased study (preferably under an able Guru) as internally consistent and conveying the absolute self-dependence of Viṣṇu and the dependence of every other entity whether sentient or insentient on Viṣṇu w.r.t. all of their existence and functioning;
• Understands that according to vedas and allied śāstras only Viṣṇu/Nārāyaṇa is:
  • ananta-kalyāṇa-guṇa-paripūrṇa (~possesses infinite, non-material, auspicious qualities);
  • sarva-doṣa-vidhura (~bereft of any inauspicious qualities) like for e.g., limitedness (by time/form/energy etc), dependence on others;
  • capable of granting mokṣa;
  • sarvāntaryāmin (~indweller of every sentiment and insentient entities);
  • neither male nor female nor neuter yet illumines/brings forth these characteristics among other entities;
  • is absolutely distinct and different from all other entities both in nature and characteristics;
  • many more, but will skip for the sake of brevity...
• Recognizes aparuṣeyatva (~authorlessness) of the vedas based on various proofs accepted under vedānta school;
• Strives to realise the unique eternal form of Viṣṇu that is antaryāmin or paramātmā (~Self) of jīvātman (~ his/her individual self) depending on whom (s)he traverses thru several lifetimes, depending on whom (s)he experiences everything based on one's svabhāva (~ innate, eternal individuality) and karma;
• Recognises that one's experience of the entire creation is thru myriad number of forms of Viṣṇu that are non-different from one's own antaryāmin, yet function thru non-material energy within other sentient and insentient principles investing and bringing to experience various characteristics;
• Having thus realised sees the same Viṣṇu as the only independent being that shines forth within the multitude of sentient beings - each of these having unique svabhāva;
• Realises that despite being within and without of everything that exists, Viṣṇu is not bound or in any way affected by the woes, miseries, and/or shortcomings of these;
• Respects and worships all forms of deities like lakṣṃī, brahmā, sarasvatī, prāṇa, bhāratī, garuḍa, śeṣa, rudra, and their respective consorts, indra, all the way to the lowest rung of deities like agni etc thru the antaryāmin approach including one's own Guru and elders;
• Focuses primarily on internal forms of worship - antarmukhasamārādhane or antaryāga which are then also performed using external implements. One's own intellect, mind, senses, etc too are considered external implements. Since all Vaiṣṇavas are realists, there is equal emphasis on both internal and external forms of worship, the former for the ultimate puruṣārtha (~goal of life) i.e., mokṣa and the latter as an expression of gratitude for providing us with these implements and enabling former sādhana as well as for internal purification; worship of all implements from śālagrāma (kind of fossils having eternal presence of Viṣṇu) to icons, to one's own body is done with the understanding that Viṣṇu is "in" these as opposed Viṣṇu actually being these;
• Accepts that mokṣa is ultimately only possible a) due to overwhelming karuṇā (~compassion) of Viṣṇu for striving jīvas, and b) thru the realisation of the unique eternal form of Viṣṇu within the jīvātma with jnāna (~wisdom), bhakti (~devotion), and vairāgya (~detachment) being fundamental to it;
• Bears the symbols of Viṣṇu - gopī-candana ūrdhvapuṇḍra (upward marking that looks usually looks like an elongated 'U' applied using a form of clay found in dvārakā), chakra (~disc), śankha (~conch), etc
• Strives to constantly remember various forms and chant various names of Viṣṇu;
• Performs every activity as a form of worship to the eternal internal form of Viṣṇu and surrenders all activities and their results unto Kṛṣṇa -- this is considered as the most essential practice irrespective of whether one is on the path of predominant jñāna or predominant bhakti or predominant karma.

This is not exhaustive. There may be more that are common to being a good human, so it is being left out of the above list. Each of the above is substantiated in the śāstras.

There is a small smārta-vaiṣṇava community that accepts Viṣṇu as supreme though being followers of Śri Śankara's māyāvāda/advaita school. They bear gopī-candana ūrdhva-puṇḍra instead of the normal bhasma-dhāraṇa (application / smearing or ash).

Also note that there are other vaiṣṇava schools like say vārkari sect which are not necessarily vaidika (following vedas) in nature, but nevertheless are generally accepted as vaiṣṇavas.

Hope that helps.

अथममबिम्बरूपीभारतीरमणमुख्यप्राणान्तर्गतश्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Aupmanyav]

Welcome back, Tattva. Each of your post is a master piece and as usual gets a like from me. But it is too technical for our new friend, Talmai, here.

 

[Talmai]

The Hindu reply will be 'just try to fulfill your responsibilities to the best of your capability and engage in righteous action'. Leave the rest (if you are a theist) to God. Do not demand anything from him.

This is known as 'Nishkama karma', action without a desire. This is advocated by Lord Krishna in BhagawadGita.

Thanks for that, Aupmanyav. For many years I have been one to focus mostly on deity and devotional or mystical practices. For about two years now I have had a greater appreciation for deeds and lifestyle being right or godly. So what you wrote about "the Hindu reply" actually sounds good.

 

[Talmai]

I give thanks to all of you who wrote replies to me in this thread.

Thank you for all the wonderful answers!

 

[Terese]

Namaste,



This question is bound to have diverse (but not necessarily contradictory) answers based on (usually) slightly different interpretation of parameters found in the śāstras (~scriptures) that are considered authoritative by different vaiṣṇava saṁpradāya (~schools) - mainly four - Śrī-Vaiṣṇava propagated by Śrī Rāmānuja, Sat-Vaiṣṇava propagated by Śrī Madhva, Puṣṭi-mārga by Śrī Vallabha, and Śrī Nimbarka saṁpradāya.

According to Śri Madhva's saṁpradāya (tattvavāda/dvaita) a vaiṣṇava is one who:

• Understands vedas, pancarātra, itihāsa, purāṇa, thru systematic unbiased study (preferably under an able Guru) as internally consistent and conveying the absolute self-dependence of Viṣṇu and the dependence of every other entity whether sentient or insentient on Viṣṇu w.r.t. all of their existence and functioning;
• Understands that according to vedas and allied śāstras only Viṣṇu/Nārāyaṇa is:
  • ananta-kalyāṇa-guṇa-paripūrṇa (~possesses infinite, non-material, auspicious qualities);
  • sarva-doṣa-vidhura (~bereft of any inauspicious qualities) like for e.g., limitedness (by time/form/energy etc), dependence on others;
  • capable of granting mokṣa;
  • sarvāntaryāmin (~indweller of every sentiment and insentient entities);
  • neither male nor female nor neuter yet illumines/brings forth these characteristics among other entities;
  • is absolutely distinct and different from all other entities both in nature and characteristics;
  • many more, but will skip for the sake of brevity...
• Recognizes aparuṣeyatva (~authorlessness) of the vedas based on various proofs accepted under vedānta school;
• Strives to realise the unique eternal form of Viṣṇu that is antaryāmin or paramātmā (~Self) of jīvātman (~ his/her individual self) depending on whom (s)he traverses thru several lifetimes, depending on whom (s)he experiences everything based on one's svabhāva (~ innate, eternal individuality) and karma;
• Recognises that one's experience of the entire creation is thru myriad number of forms of Viṣṇu that are non-different from one's own antaryāmin, yet function thru non-material energy within other sentient and insentient principles investing and bringing to experience various characteristics;
• Having thus realised sees the same Viṣṇu as the only independent being that shines forth within the multitude of sentient beings - each of these having unique svabhāva;
• Realises that despite being within and without of everything that exists, Viṣṇu is not bound or in any way affected by the woes, miseries, and/or shortcomings of these;
• Respects and worships all forms of deities like lakṣṃī, brahmā, sarasvatī, prāṇa, bhāratī, garuḍa, śeṣa, rudra, and their respective consorts, indra, all the way to the lowest rung of deities like agni etc thru the antaryāmin approach including one's own Guru and elders;
• Focuses primarily on internal forms of worship - antarmukhasamārādhane or antaryāga which are then also performed using external implements. One's own intellect, mind, senses, etc too are considered external implements. Since all Vaiṣṇavas are realists, there is equal emphasis on both internal and external forms of worship, the former for the ultimate puruṣārtha (~goal of life) i.e., mokṣa and the latter as an expression of gratitude for providing us with these implements and enabling former sādhana as well as for internal purification; worship of all implements from śālagrāma (kind of fossils having eternal presence of Viṣṇu) to icons, to one's own body is done with the understanding that Viṣṇu is "in" these as opposed Viṣṇu actually being these;
• Accepts that mokṣa is ultimately only possible a) due to overwhelming karuṇā (~compassion) of Viṣṇu for striving jīvas, and b) thru the realisation of the unique eternal form of Viṣṇu within the jīvātma with jnāna (~wisdom), bhakti (~devotion), and vairāgya (~detachment) being fundamental to it;
• Bears the symbols of Viṣṇu - gopī-candana ūrdhvapuṇḍra (upward marking that looks usually looks like an elongated 'U' applied using a form of clay found in dvārakā), chakra (~disc), śankha (~conch), etc
• Strives to constantly remember various forms and chant various names of Viṣṇu;
• Performs every activity as a form of worship to the eternal internal form of Viṣṇu and surrenders all activities and their results unto Kṛṣṇa -- this is considered as the most essential practice irrespective of whether one is on the path of predominant jñāna or predominant bhakti or predominant karma.

This is not exhaustive. There may be more that are common to being a good human, so it is being left out of the above list. Each of the above is substantiated in the śāstras.

There is a small smārta-vaiṣṇava community that accepts Viṣṇu as supreme though being followers of Śri Śankara's māyāvāda/advaita school. They bear gopī-candana ūrdhva-puṇḍra instead of the normal bhasma-dhāraṇa (application / smearing or ash).

Also note that there are other vaiṣṇava schools like say vārkari sect which are not necessarily vaidika (following vedas) in nature, but nevertheless are generally accepted as vaiṣṇavas.

Hope that helps.

अथममबिम्बरूपीभारतीरमणमुख्यप्राणान्तर्गतश्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

Pranam Tattvaji, fantastic answer, it was a pleasure to read Madhva's definition of a Vaishnava. May i ask, what is this smarta-vaishnava community? How can they be Smartas if they are Vaishnava also? And, from what i have learned from other Vaishnavas is that one can be a Vaishnava and an Advaitin without being influenced by Smartas. Adi Shankaracharya was a Vaishnava himself, and was a vaidika.

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Welcome back, Tattva. Each of your post is a master piece and as usual gets a like from me.

Namaste Aup ji, thank you and as always i will hold it to be your magnanimity in liking what i sporadically share based on whatever little i know.

But it is too technical for our new friend, Talmai, here.

Well, i try my best, but as you know english is only an acquired language. It could perhaps be the terminology, but then there are really no good (acceptable) translations for any of them, and of course for a real seeker that's hardly an obstacle.

Pranam Tattvaji,

May i ask, what is this smarta-vaishnava community? How can they be Smartas if they are Vaishnava also?

Namaste Terese ji, smarta-vaiṣṇava is a small group of people - most of them from southern parts of India (most of those whom i know are in Karnataka) - who worship Viṣṇu alone yet are followers of Śri Śaṅkara. There are also bhāgavata saṁpradāya followers of Śri Śaṅkara. Smārta merely means those who follow the smṛties as opposed to those who follow only the śrutis (śrauta). Smṛties follow the śrutis - the former are guidelines or sort of recommended best practices or clarifications (where there is scope for doubt) in śrutis. Hence by definition those who follow śrutis alone (correctly) would naturally be smārtas too, but vice versa may or may not hold simply because there have been small modifications/inclusions within smṛties based on local practices of particular regions.

And for those who claim to be "purely smārta" can it mean they don't follow the śrutis? So the śrauta-smārta has technically nothing to do with vaiṣṇava/śaiva/etc, the "panca/ṣaḍāyatana (now it is maybe saptāyatana including ayyappa) all gods are one and the same because they are basically figments of your imagination" theory is a different thing. So why are they referred to as smārta? simply because their everyday practices including festivities are predominantly based on smṛties including purāṇas etc like for e.g., gowrī-vrata, making clay idols of gaṇeśa for caturthī etc (i'm not sure if most other examples would be immediately cognisable for you). The śrautas (like the Mādhvas) too celebrate these, some in the smārta way also (but with the above antaryāmin approach) but the purely śrauta would perform gaṇa-homa alone. The point is śrauta-smārta are not really in opposition to each other and has nothing to do with theology as such.

श्रीमन्मध्वेशार्पणमस्तु ।