Vaishnava Organizations/Institutions

[Nataraj Das]

Jai Sri Krsna

Over the past five years, since I have been on the bhakti path, I have met many devotees like me who aim for devotional service. Most of them come from ISKCON, where I grew up taking my first steps. In addition to ISKCON, I met devotees from other organizations / institutions, including Bhakti Marga, Pure Bhakti, Lord Chaitanya's Mission, as well as several other paths related to vishnuism.

What caught my special attention was the fanatical and speculative attitude of most of the people I met, and strong criticism for the other paths. A few years ago, during Pandava Nirjala ekadashi, in which I fasted completely, I had the opportunity to go to the Jehovah's Witnesses for sankirtana. The result was that several of them uttered the Holy Name of Krishna, but most did not want to hear anything from me, and yet they wanted me to listen to them. Now, years later, I see that the attitude of Jehovah's Witnesses did not differ in any way from that of the majority, it may seem, of advanced and initiated devotees. The spiritual process of Bhakti-Yoga begins with Sravanam, means listening, and it remains the most important aspect from the beginning to the end of this process. Thanks to humbleness, we are able to take the instructions from Guru or other devotees and become fully successful in spiritual self-realization, basically to return to pure devotional service for Radha and Krishna. Paradoxically, people who are on different paths of vishnuism do not want to listen, but only want to speak and be heard. I noticed how false ego and the mind speaks through the majority, so-called "devotees" and in that refers to every organization without exception, which hurts very much considering the nobility of the acharya-founders of these institutions who present pure devotional service.

All this made me no longer want to consider myself a member of any of the abovementioned organization and I rely solely on the grace of those pure devotees who have laid the foundations for many of us. What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?

 

[Darkforbid]

I've always wondered how to you got to 33 million Gods

 

[Nataraj Das]

I've always wondered how to you got to 330 million Gods

Dear Brother,

How does that relate to the topic?
BTW, all the Gods are present in the form of a Guru (a true Guru to be exact). Just find Your spiritual master and You will know not only the demigods but the Supreme Lord Himself.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I've always wondered how to you got to 330 million Gods

What does this have to do with the OP?

 

[SalixIncendium]

What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?

First, greetings and salutations. Welcome to the forum.

I'm not on a bhakti path, so take what I say here with a grain of salt.

I think that each individual is entitled to worship and revere the divine as they see fit, and it's not for me to judge them. As I see it, each person progresses through samsara at different rates and are at different 'levels' of vidya, which is why we see different individuals practicing different yogas and even different religions.

In my opinion, religion should be personal thing, whether one practices in a social setting or as a solitaire. As I said, it's not for me to judge what one does in bhakti practice so long as the practices are in accordance with ahimsa.

 

[Darkforbid]

What does this have to do with the OP?

'All this made me no longer want to consider myself a member of any of the abovementioned organization and I rely solely on the grace of those pure devotees who have laid the foundations for many of us. What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?'

I thought, it's just a question about the beliefs of the devotees the poster has chosen to follow

 

[SalixIncendium]

'All this made me no longer want to consider myself a member of any of the abovementioned organization and I rely solely on the grace of those pure devotees who have laid the foundations for many of us. What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?'

I thought, it's just a question about the beliefs of the devotees the poster has chosen to follow

I can assure you it is quite unlikely that there are 330 million gods in Hinduism, let alone any devotees that recognize that many.

 

[Darkforbid]

I can assure you it is quite unlikely that there are 330 million gods in Hinduism, let alone any devotees that recognize that many.

Sorry missed my own typo: The 33 Million Gods of Hinduism, still don't see how you get that number.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Sorry missed my own typo: The 33 Million Gods of Hinduism, still don't see how you get that number.

I think that number came about as an exaggeration as a result of the diversity of beliefs in Hinduism, the fact that there are 1.08 billion Hindus in the world (966 million in India alone), and the many gods and avatars Hinduism does have. It's doubtful that the real number comes close to anywhere near 33 million though.

 

[Vinayaka]

Jai Sri Krsna

Over the past five years, since I have been on the bhakti path, I have met many devotees like me who aim for devotional service. Most of them come from ISKCON, where I grew up taking my first steps. In addition to ISKCON, I met devotees from other organizations / institutions, including Bhakti Marga, Pure Bhakti, Lord Chaitanya's Mission, as well as several other paths related to vishnuism.

What caught my special attention was the fanatical and speculative attitude of most of the people I met, and strong criticism for the other paths. A few years ago, during Pandava Nirjala ekadashi, in which I fasted completely, I had the opportunity to go to the Jehovah's Witnesses for sankirtana. The result was that several of them uttered the Holy Name of Krishna, but most did not want to hear anything from me, and yet they wanted me to listen to them. Now, years later, I see that the attitude of Jehovah's Witnesses did not differ in any way from that of the majority, it may seem, of advanced and initiated devotees. The spiritual process of Bhakti-Yoga begins with Sravanam, means listening, and it remains the most important aspect from the beginning to the end of this process. Thanks to humbleness, we are able to take the instructions from Guru or other devotees and become fully successful in spiritual self-realization, basically to return to pure devotional service for Radha and Krishna. Paradoxically, people who are on different paths of vishnuism do not want to listen, but only want to speak and be heard. I noticed how false ego and the mind speaks through the majority, so-called "devotees" and in that refers to every organization without exception, which hurts very much considering the nobility of the acharya-founders of these institutions who present pure devotional service.

All this made me no longer want to consider myself a member of any of the abovementioned organization and I rely solely on the grace of those pure devotees who have laid the foundations for many of us. What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?

Namaste,
Not really anything to debate, but there is some stuff to discuss.

Firstly, I'm happy for you, in that you've seen through what seems to be a common trait amongst some groups of devotees. It seems so difficult of a breakthrough for some ... to realise that others may have a valid point of view, and maybe it's a good idea to listen. The root word of ignorance is ignore, after all. Ignore means to not listen, so ignoring means you stay ignorant.

I've seen bits and pieces of ISKCON for 45 years now. I liked the days when devotees danced on the streets, but back then when I went to a local temple, the proselytising turned me off. Then there came a period of deception when ISKCON devotees dressed in suits and ties out on the streets, pretending they were something other than who they were, raising funds under false premise. I had one encounter where the person lied (partly) about being an international charity, and hedidn't know I knew what the ISKCON tag on his suit meant. I didn't confront him, but refused to donate money, and walked away, losing more respect.

But then the long period of immigration started, and Indian immigrants started going to the ISKCON temples, not as members of ISKCON, but as devotees of Krishna. It was the only thing available. So that developed a variation in the temples, with more Indian influence wherever more immigration happened, and less in others where the converts were still the majority. Generally, it was a mellowing for the entire group. A person could go and not get proselytised at. I think it helped show the converts a humbler attitude, by example.

My last encounter with ISKCON was in India, where a small group was proselytising outside a large Murugan temple in South India, where Siva and Murugan worship is so popular. I found that insensitive. Most temple devotees just ignored them. I really felt like going up to them, asking them to drop the books somewhere, and coming with me into the temple to receive the darshan and blessings of Lord Muruga, whose Vel dissolves ignorance and ego. But I figured they wouldn't be able to do that as it would be straying from their purpose: to proselytise.

My city (Edmonton, Canada) has an ISKCON temple. I've been 3 or 4 times, but always on a weekday morning when it's empty and Panditji is busy. I took a fresh flower garland once, and just sat in front of the Gods for half an hour or so.

All in all, ISKCON has done more good than harm, by being out there, and providing people with an alternative to western faiths. I think some of the heavy proselytising was because of converts bringing along their subconscious minds with that, and being an exception to 'Hindus don't proselytise!' But it's all good now. You're an example to that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think that number came about as an exaggeration as a result of the diversity of beliefs in Hinduism, the fact that there are 1.08 billion Hindus in the world (966 million in India alone), and the many gods and avatars Hinduism does have. It's doubtful that the real number comes close to anywhere near 33 million though.

It's become a petty point of 'digging' and is best ignored. You could answer it really well, and the same person would go on to the next Hindu and ask it again.

 

[Sirona]

Jai Sri Krsna

Over the past five years, since I have been on the bhakti path, I have met many devotees like me who aim for devotional service. Most of them come from ISKCON, where I grew up taking my first steps. In addition to ISKCON, I met devotees from other organizations / institutions, including Bhakti Marga, Pure Bhakti, Lord Chaitanya's Mission, as well as several other paths related to vishnuism.

What caught my special attention was the fanatical and speculative attitude of most of the people I met, and strong criticism for the other paths. A few years ago, during Pandava Nirjala ekadashi, in which I fasted completely, I had the opportunity to go to the Jehovah's Witnesses for sankirtana. The result was that several of them uttered the Holy Name of Krishna, but most did not want to hear anything from me, and yet they wanted me to listen to them. Now, years later, I see that the attitude of Jehovah's Witnesses did not differ in any way from that of the majority, it may seem, of advanced and initiated devotees. The spiritual process of Bhakti-Yoga begins with Sravanam, means listening, and it remains the most important aspect from the beginning to the end of this process. Thanks to humbleness, we are able to take the instructions from Guru or other devotees and become fully successful in spiritual self-realization, basically to return to pure devotional service for Radha and Krishna. Paradoxically, people who are on different paths of vishnuism do not want to listen, but only want to speak and be heard. I noticed how false ego and the mind speaks through the majority, so-called "devotees" and in that refers to every organization without exception, which hurts very much considering the nobility of the acharya-founders of these institutions who present pure devotional service.

All this made me no longer want to consider myself a member of any of the abovementioned organization and I rely solely on the grace of those pure devotees who have laid the foundations for many of us. What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?

Dear @Nataraj Das ,

I guess it probably would have been wiser to put such a topic into the Hinduism DIR or into "Same Faith Debates", if you want a debate.

Although I have read some Bhakti Marga material (because in some parts of the world it may be difficult to find authentic books on Hinduism), the only organization I have actual contact with is ISKCON. I think zealotry and fanatism are traps on the bhakti path that everybody should be wary of. From what I've learned from the other Hindus here, you are not required to take one of those religions with an all or nothing approach. I think in order to recognize cult tendencies it may be also helpful to read informative, secular "anti-cult" material. I think organizations with rigid structures or hierarchies and a missionary tendency may succeed in recruiting believers initially, but they seem to fail in keeping them for longer periods of time because they fall short on genuine spirituality. So if the group spirit in a rigid organization doesn't feel good for you, you are probably best-advised to leave those groups to go your own way. Best wishes.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The result was that several of them uttered the Holy Name of Krishna, but most did not want to hear anything from me, and yet they wanted me to listen to them.

Thanks to humbleness, we are able to take the instructions from Guru or other devotees and become fully successful in spiritual self-realization, basically to return to pure devotional service for Radha and Krishna. Paradoxically, people who are on different paths of vishnuism do not want to listen, but only want to speak and be heard. I noticed how false ego and the mind speaks through the majority, so-called "devotees" ..

I rely solely on the grace of those pure devotees who have laid the foundations for many of us. What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?

Jai Sri Kishna, Nataraj Das, and welcome to the forum.
I do not know how JWs became interested in Krishna. Why did they not want to hear from you but wanted you to listen to them?
Why is initiation important? People have different ways, there are ways other than Bhakti in Hinduism.
Why is guru all that important? We have excellent scriptures which describe all ways and everything.
Now, are you talking of ego of the other devotees or your own ego? And who are these 'pure devotees' - the JWs?

 

[Terese]

It's so unfortunate when ego impedes on spiritual service. There is so much exquisite wisdom in all Vaishnava sampradayas. Truth is learned when we listen! Vaishnavas should not be badmouthing other Vaishnavas too.

 

[stvdv]

I think that number came about as an exaggeration as a result of the diversity of beliefs in Hinduism, the fact that there are 1.08 billion Hindus in the world (966 million in India alone), and the many gods and avatars Hinduism does have. It's doubtful that the real number comes close to anywhere near 33 million though.

This number came into being a very long time ago. My guess is that this number means something different
Vedas teach us that all are divine incarnations. So maybe when this number was revealed the population they knew of, was 33 million.

I double checked it with Google:
5000 years ago the world population was 14 million. Then 33 million seems quite close.

Humans had been around for tens of thousands of years by the year 1 A.D. when the Earth's population was an estimated 200 million. It hit the billion mark in 1804 and doubled by 1927

5000 years ago, the population was 14 million. 4000 years ago, it was 27 million. 3000 years ago, it was 50 million

 

[Aupmanyav]

India's population was 330 million when this question was raised.

 

[stvdv]

India's population was 330 million when this question was raised.

What year was this question raised?

 

[stvdv]

All this made me no longer want to consider myself a member of any of the abovementioned organization and I rely solely on the grace of those pure devotees who have laid the foundations for many of us. What are your feelings and realizations on this topic?

Welcome to RF,

I like what you wrote.

I believe that any (non) faith grants opportunities to get the highest Realisation for any human Being

 

[Aupmanyav]

What year was this question raised?

Some time around our Independence (1947). Our population was 330 million at that time. In 2020, the numbers have quadrupled (1350 million +).

 

[stvdv]

Some time around our Independence (1947). Our population was 330 million at that time. In 2020, the numbers have quadrupled (1350 million +).

Thank you. I misunderstood what you meant by below quote. What question were you talking about?

India's population was 330 million when this question was raised.