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Varṇa and 'Converts'

The Crimson Universe

Active Member
Everything including the sheaths are Brahman. But we shouldn't be sheath conscious.

Beside Brahman 'appears' to be separated as Krishna said in Gita, but is actually indivisible.

According to the Advaita's Avachheda Vada (The theory of limitation), the ONE indivisible Brahman 'appears' divided in the form of many jivas/entities, because of various upadhis/limitations/sheaths.
Once the sheaths are dropped, only Brahman in its original state remains. :)
 

mangalavara

नमस्कार
Premium Member
Advaita too makes no distinctions, not even with non-living things; and in some Vaishnava beliefs also there are no distinctions. All are devotees of Lord Krishna or Narayana.

Thanks to @Vinayaka and you, it has become apparent to me that the major sampradāyas out there do not discriminate on the basis of caste.

'Varna' and 'Jati' distinctions were more in practice than in religion. And it suited brahmins, reserved their space in religion.

Makes sense. What are the steps to become a Brahmin so I can reserve my space in religion? :p

Most of the Rishis in those times themselves were of the lower economic shudra groups engaged in farming, tanning, and so on.

Well then, I can no longer hold them in high regard. I expect any ṛṣi to be a brahmin who knows that he is above such lowly occupations.

Kidding, of course! What you wrote is very good to know like everything else you have contributed to this thread. It's fascinating to me that most of the ṛṣis had those kinds of occupations because, later in history, sants such as Kabīr, Ravidās, and Nānak were men who did not believe caste or occupation made a person lowly or impure.

The earlier vedic system did not entertain casteism, and this was a later development through the Manu smriti which established the feudal birth-based caste system. This however has no basis in the Vedas and was probably compelled by economic and social factors at that time, and supposed to change with time.

Good to know.

It is the Varna or character-disposition that the Guru guaged Satyakama and not his birth or Jati. Due to his honest character and conduct, Satyakama was seen as a Brahmana.

The father may be a birth-based brahmana in the caste system, but then cannot be seen as a true Brahmana, as per your observation, in terms of varna which is the important point, as he had taken advantage of a lower caste female in his household .

It makes sense then that the gurū accepted Satyakāma for the latter's character rather than lineage.

Casteism hampers meritocracy, and this was the reason why India was under exploitative foreign rule for many centuries. The invaders had a more meritocratic structure within themselves favoring competence, and which enabled them to conquer and rule easily.

I just realized that casteism is as backwards as racism. Giving somebody a position just because the person is white, for instance, is no different from giving somebody a position just because the person is of a particular lineage. Skills, competence, passion, etc. are much better factors in a person.

The Arya Samaj and Brahmo Samaj which goes solely by the Vedas and not later smritis provides the necessary rituals and training in vedas and samskaras to all Hindus including foreigners.

They sound like some really fine movements!

Hinduism in its pure Vedic form actually inclines to the modern political ideals of equality, fraternity and liberty of all human beings. I had created a thread in this regard...

Liberty, fraternity and equality are cornerstones of Hinduism

I am definitely checking out your thread!

Thank you.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Makes sense. What are the steps to become a Brahmin so I can reserve my space in religion? :p
I expect any ṛṣi to be a brahmin who knows that he is above such lowly occupations.
I stick to truth, and truth always makes sense.

"Truly that Dharma is the Truth (Satya); Therefore, when a man speaks the Truth, they say, "He speaks the Dharma"; and if he speaks Dharma, they say, "He speaks the Truth!" For both are one." - Brihadaranyak Upanishad

IMHO, you are doing fairly well all by yourself. :)
Well, Sage VedaVyasa was definitely born as a 'varna sankara' (mix) of brahmin father (Sage Parashara) and a fisher-woman (Shudra, Satyavati), who later married Kuru King Shantanu. Kauravas and Pandavas were her great-grandsons.
 
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mangalavara

नमस्कार
Premium Member
Truthfulness is not a desired quality of brahmins only, it is a desired quality for all humans, whatever be the varna or jati.
This is the effect of his 'samskaras'. Satyakama's mother, in spite of having sported with many men in her younger days, surely raised him well. All credit to her.

That sounds a lot better than requiring truthfulness only for three or even one class of people. I love truthfulness and I think society would be better if everybody loved truth. In my own experience, loving truth and fulfilling what I utter (almost all the time) has made telling the truth a lot easier.

Inclination, like karma, takes time to fructify, and it is what you born with, either by the grace of God (theist's take) or by DNA (atheist's take).

Understood.

Mangalavara, kindly do not equate 'samskaras' with ceremonies. It is the input that parents, family, society, teachers, education, beliefs make into the psychological make-up of a person. Just going through the 'yajnopavita' ceremony and wearing the thread does not make anyone a 'dwij' (twice born).

I was given the impression that saṃskāras are ceremonies. Perhaps you mean they are more than ceremonies, but not to entirely eliminate ceremonies?

:) Varna, inclination, remains true in all yugas. In future also, people will be born with different inclinations. And that is necessary for the world. All people cannot be/should not be 'kshatriyas'. Who would, then, engage in science or trade? We have only misinterpreted the meaning of 'varna' to make it dependent on family and lineage. That is not correct.

One reason that I played devil's advocate with the idea that varṇa is determined by lineage is that, when we use Sanskrit terminology, we must be referring to something in a particular civilization rather than the whole world. I think varṇa can definitely be something universal for humankind considering that even the devas have varṇas according to Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad, and the devas are not confined to the northwestern region of South Asia.

I appreciate your study and growing knowledge of Hinduism.

Thank you, Aup. :)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I think varṇa can definitely be something universal for humankind considering that even the devas have varṇas according to Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad, and the devas are not confined to the northwestern region of South Asia.
I would not talk about Devas. As you know I am an Atheist, Advaitist (believer in non-duality), Orthodox Hindu. :D
Quite a take.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
I love truthfulness and I think society would be better if everybody loved truth.

It requires a certain amount of austerity and effort to discern the truth from falsehood.

'Man is made for error; it enters his mind naturally, and he discovers a few truths only with the greatest effort.' - Frederick the Great

It is easy to accept error and very hard to sift truth from falsehoods. Sri Ramakrishna stated that adherence to the truth is the greatest austerity in the kali yuga and all else fade before it. This is because of the effort involved in discernment of truth , especially in the Kali Yuga, where truth and righteousness is said to be of a mere quarter of strength due to the abundance of tamas.

If you remember, the bull of righteousness in the kali yuga have three limbs missing. Swami Vivekananda had stated that strength gained by spiritual austerities or tapas is needed for the perception of truth.


Great is truth; but greater still is truthful living. ~ Guru Nanak

Also knowing truth is one thing but truthful living is an another thing. Both correct judgement and strength of character are needed for truthful living. This also ensures that one gains better perception of truth as well by the process of proper understanding and execution of duties, due to the austerity involved in their performance.
 
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