variety in evolution?

[slowbreath]

Atanu, evolution is indeed not mere chance. Nor is it designed by a conscious will.

The third option, the one that does in fact happen in reality, is that evolution is guided by the environment. It favors giraffes with long necks because the environment offers feeding opportunities for those giraffes. It favors male birds with flamboyant plummages because the environment makes those birds more likely to mate.

The environment is not random, so neither will evolution be random.

i understand from this that evolution exists for the purpose of sevring the enviornment......is that correct?

 

[slowbreath]

I would say (nature) played a big part in the evolution of species. Which species did you have in mind?

i had no species in mind, the fact that there is variety in species was what i questioned.

 

[LuisDantas]

if evolution has no goal, then why do things try to survive, why is there a need for the survival of the fittest?

Things try to survive because they are afraid of not surviving, or for simpler organisms, because that is what they know how to do.

Clearly, organisms that don't attempt to survive are not as likely to survive and breed new generations as those that do. It doesn't really matter how self-aware the organisms are.

There is no need for survival of the fittest. It just turns out that it is so. Earth could even lack lifeforms, it wouldn't mean anything except for those non-existent lifeforms.

if filling niches is a process, then what intellegent thought, or whatever, put that process in motion?

I don't think anyone really knows. I doubt there is any. There is certainly no compelling reason to believe in any.

 

[slowbreath]

Variation is inevitable. Once you start shuffling your genes around via sexual reproduction, you can't not produce variation.

wa:do

if that is the case, then what caused genes to shuffle around?

if they shuffled around for a purpose, for example, to fill a niche, then what motivated them to do so? if weak genes die off because they cannot survive,then why do genes need to shuffle around?

 

[slowbreath]

As we find naturalistic explanations for the phenomenons around us this 'casino owner' (or god) has to move one step back.

We have a quite good grasp on how environmental and climate changes come into place, so there is your 'casino owner'. But again, you could now just continue making the same fallacious statement that seems to go into regression.

what are naturalistic explainations? are those things that can be reasonably explained by most people? or are they things that only nature holds the answers to?

 

[Alceste]

if evolution has no goal, then why do things try to survive, why is there a need for the survival of the fittest?

To observe that creatures best adapted to their environment survive longer and reproduce more prolifically than poorly adapted creatures is not to recognize a "need", but to state an obvious fact. There's no "why" required - it's a simple cause and effect relationship: The fitter you are, the longer you will live and the more attractive you will be to the opposite sex.

if filling niches is a process, then what intellegent thought, or whatever, put that process in motion?

No more intelligent thought is required to cause life to adapt to niches than is required to cause rainwater to pool in low ground. Again, it is a simple cause and effect relationship - just as gravity draws the rainwater ever downwards, evolution draws ever-adapting species into environments where it can thrive and survive.

 

[Alceste]

i understand from this that evolution exists for the purpose of sevring the enviornment......is that correct?

There is no purpose to evolution. To imagine what the world looks like with a non-theistic view of life's diversity, you need to temporarily unhitch from the theistic assumption that there must be some purpose, goal, design, meaning or over-arching significance to evolution, or to any other observed and experimentally proven natural mechanism. Such assumptions only cloud our perception of the phenomena we are attempting to empirically investigate. So, questions couched in those terms make no sense at all in science. Science asks how, not why. Religion and philosophy ask why, not how.

 

[LuisDantas]

i understand from this that evolution exists for the purpose of sevring the enviornment......is that correct?

If we assume that evolution was meant to be by a divinity of some kind, then yes, I guess it is correct. It is subject to personal interpretation.

 

[crocusj]

I believe in Evolution and its evidences. But I have a doubt here....

I don't believe in evolution. There is a lot of compelling evidence for it and I have yet to hear of anything approaching an alternative but I am not a scientist and as such am not really in a position to judge its veracity at that level. I think people should read more on it because of the continuing arguments against it but on a technical level it is stultifyingly boring, incomprehensible and has little bearing on my lack of belief in a creator god. And, of course, it is not a belief system...

 

[slowbreath]

If we assume that evolution was meant to be by a divinity of some kind, then yes, I guess it is correct. It is subject to personal interpretation.

i did not think that evolution was any kind of a divinity, i thought it was a process and i am unclear what the ultimate goal of the evolution process is, if there is any.
personal interpretation can be applied to anything, but i thought the evolution idea was not something that needed personal interpretation to explain itself.
do you believe that evolution can only exist through assumption and perosnal interpretation?

 

[slowbreath]

To observe that creatures best adapted to their environment survive longer and reproduce more prolifically than poorly adapted creatures is not to recognize a "need", but to state an obvious fact. There's no "why" required - it's a simple cause and effect relationship: The fitter you are, the longer you will live and the more attractive you will be to the opposite sex.



No more intelligent thought is required to cause life to adapt to niches than is required to cause rainwater to pool in low ground. Again, it is a simple cause and effect relationship - just as gravity draws the rainwater ever downwards, evolution draws ever-adapting species into environments where it can thrive and survive.[/qu

gravity is a cause...........this is an example of what evolution exists for?? do you believe that evolution exists for no purpose and no ultimate goal?

 

[LuisDantas]

i did not think that evolution was any kind of a divinity, i thought it was a process and i am unclear what the ultimate goal of the evolution process is, if there is any.

Of course there isn't. It has no will of its own.

personal interpretation can be applied to anything, but i thought the evolution idea was not something that needed personal interpretation to explain itself.

And you are right. It is in assuming that it has a purpose that you are wrong.

do you believe that evolution can only exist through assumption and perosnal interpretation?

(Biological) Evolution _does_ exist. It is not like there is any real doubt on the matter, or any reliance on personal assumption or interpretation.

 

[slowbreath]

I don't believe in evolution. There is a lot of compelling evidence for it and I have yet to hear of anything approaching an alternative but I am not a scientist and as such am not really in a position to judge its veracity at that level. I think people should read more on it because of the continuing arguments against it but on a technical level it is stultifyingly boring, incomprehensible and has little bearing on my lack of belief in a creator god. And, of course, it is not a belief system...

its good to hear those words, they are short and to the point and logical. do you have a belief system?

 

[slowbreath]

Of course there isn't. It has no will of its own.

human beings have a will, as well as other creatures, how was will created if evolution knows nothing about will because it has no will of its own?

 

[Tristesse]

Of course there isn't. It has no will of its own.

human beings have a will, as well as other creatures, how was will created if evolution knows nothing about will because it has no will of its own?

What makes you think "will" has to be created?

 

[LuisDantas]

human beings have a will, as well as other creatures, how was will created if evolution knows nothing about will because it has no will of its own?

Will (actually cognition in general) is an adaptative advantage that developed randomly.

 

[painted wolf]

if that is the case, then what caused genes to shuffle around?

Simple chemistry.... if during meiosis pieces of chromosomes get too close to each other their polarity can cause them them to break and swap places with another chromosome segment.
Chromosomal crossover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if they shuffled around for a purpose, for example, to fill a niche, then what motivated them to do so? if weak genes die off because they cannot survive,then why do genes need to shuffle around?

They don't have a purpose, its a random event...
Weak genes don't always "die off" because the particular gene may not always be weak in every circumstance... it may even be beneficial when combined with other varients of the same gene. For example the sickle cell variant is beneficial when you also have a normal copy of the gene.

wa:do

 

[slowbreath]

What makes you think "will" has to be created?

because will exists, and my nature tells me that something must be created to exist.
do you believe will was created? if not, how do you think it came to be?

 

[slowbreath]

Will (actually cognition in general) is an adaptative advantage that developed randomly.

oddley enough, i do understand that statement. it has become apparent to me over time that hard to explain things about evolution seem to go to a comon denominator......"random development" it would persuade me toward thinking that the things that be are not caused by evolution, but they are just the result of random events.
have you ever considered such a thought?

 

[slowbreath]

Simple chemistry.... if during meiosis pieces of chromosomes get too close to each other their polarity can cause them them to break and swap places with another chromosome segment.
Chromosomal crossover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They don't have a purpose, its a random event...
Weak genes don't always "die off" because the particular gene may not always be weak in every circumstance... it may even be beneficial when combined with other varients of the same gene. For example the sickle cell variant is beneficial when you also have a normal copy of the gene.

wa:do

i'm impressed, you had the courage to bring forward that there is no purpose to evolution and that the things that be are, or at least could quite possibly be, nothing more than random event...........this is helpful to me.