variety in evolution?

[Alceste]

Fair enough some selective events are I suppose seemingly 'random'...but mutation the driving force is entirely random.


*cough* Chaos theory *cough*

Not ENTIRELY random. Only critters who manage to get laid have the opportunity to produce genetically different offspring. And even then, the genetic variation is limited by the laws of chemistry.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Not ENTIRELY random. Only critters who manage to get laid have the opportunity to produce genetically different offspring. And even then, the genetic variation is limited by the laws of chemistry.

*cough* Chaos Theory *cough*

Mutation itself is random...however.

 

[Alceste]

*cough* Chaos Theory *cough*

Mutation itself is random...however.

Random-ish.

 

[slowbreath]

Two things you need to learn:
(1) Evolution is not random.
(2) Evolution is not about the origin of life.

Understanding these two things may help.

As for intelligence, can you think of any way that having intelligence might help an organism survive and reproduce?

i was under the understanding that in the process of evolution sometimes genes randomly got mixed up with each other and produced something other than what would be expected......thats what i mean when i speak of random, you could use the word accidental instead of random.
and as for evolution not being about the origin of life, i honestly did not know that, i always thought it encompassed that.

 

[Civil Shephard]

anybody got any ideas about why evolution might have created so much variety of life ?

well... I think it's to both hide God and magnify God at the same time. I mean I believe God knew his children would come up with a whole bunch of reasons to ignore Him. And He also knew that whole bunch of us would come up with a whole bunch of reasons to acknowledge Him.

But to my mind diversity in creation is what seperates those that love God from those that don't. I mean so many are exclusive and want folks to look, act, think and believe just like they do or they's goin to hell! Other folks are more about looking at the whole picture of creation and seeing that the only constants are love, acceptance and good ole fashioned fun.

Diversity in Evolution and variety of life are the building blocks of a just and peaceful outlook for those that want it and for those that see the evolution of how we should veiw not just the earth but eachother.

 

[Autodidact]

i was under the understanding that in the process of evolution sometimes genes randomly got mixed up with each other and produced something other than what would be expected......thats what i mean when i speak of random, you could use the word accidental instead of random.

This is correct. But then there is an important second piece, which is not random, and that is natural selection. Those randomly generated variations that work (lead to survival and reproduction) get kept, and those that don't die out naturally (don't get to survive and reproduce.) Thus over time the population constantly, slowly, slightly changes to become better adapted to its environment--more fit.

and as for evolution not being about the origin of life, i honestly did not know that, i always thought it encompassed that.

Live and learn!

 

[slowbreath]

What aspects of evolution do you have problems with?

wa:do

getting back to you about this ?..........the eye is super complex, the process of sight is more complex, physical balance, more complexity, my brain controls emotions, can do abstract thought, i have a will, and desires that differ completely from my twin, i cannot believe that humans evolved into this if there is no intellegent thought guiding evolution, or if any of these things, or many others, happened randomly (i use the word random as accidently)
perhaps the origins of life is where i seek answers, and not evolution.

 

[slowbreath]

well... I think it's to both hide God and magnify God at the same time. I mean I believe God knew his children would come up with a whole bunch of reasons to ignore Him. And He also knew that whole bunch of us would come up with a whole bunch of reasons to acknowledge Him.

But to my mind diversity in creation is what seperates those that love God from those that don't. I mean so many are exclusive and want folks to look, act, think and believe just like they do or they's goin to hell! Other folks are more about looking at the whole picture of creation and seeing that the only constants are love, acceptance and good ole fashioned fun.

Diversity in Evolution and variety of life are the building blocks of a just and peaceful outlook for those that want it and for those that see the evolution of how we should veiw not just the earth but eachother.

do you mind if i ask what your religious background is?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

anybody got any ideas about why evolution might have created so much variety of life ?

IMO, a big one is one of the most significant developments in the history of life: predation.

When organisms started to feed off each other, suddenly evolution wasn't just filling niches, it was creating niches to fill.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

getting back to you about this ?..........the eye is super complex, the process of sight is more complex,

While the eye is a fascinating thing and how it functions and what it can do is even more fascinating it is quite limited. As unique as some tend to believe man is because of their believing man was created I want to add that we are sub par compared to other species on the planet in regards to the eye. We do fairly "OK" at night whereas other animals thrive in darkness due to their great eye sight. In fact, if the body is truly "designed" then the designer did an extremely poor job.

physical balance, more complexity

Are you sure about that. Deer and horses as well as dozens of others species of animals are walking within hours after their birth but it takes us almost a year to get the hang of it.

my brain controls emotions, can do abstract thought

If you're suggesting other animals don't or can't then please present some evidence.

perhaps the origins of life is where i seek answers, and not evolution.

Possibly

 

[Autodidact]

getting back to you about this ?..........the eye is super complex, the process of sight is more complex, physical balance, more complexity, my brain controls emotions, can do abstract thought, i have a will, and desires that differ completely from my twin, i cannot believe that humans evolved into this if there is no intellegent thought guiding evolution, or if any of these things, or many others, happened randomly (i use the word random as accidently)
perhaps the origins of life is where i seek answers, and not evolution.

These are valid and interesting problems for Biology. Your questions are not the typical creationist propaganda, just valid scientific questions. We can try to answer them here if you like, but I think you would benefit most from a good, popular book about evolution. It is very interesting stuff, IMO. I like Evolution, Triumph of an Idea, by Carl Zimmer, not least because it has lots of good pictures, but there are other good ones.

If you like, I will do my best to explain the basic concept of the Theory of Evolution (ToE). Once you understand it, it explains so much about why living things are the way they are. IMO, it explains a lot about why people act the way they do. It has added immensely to my understanding of human behavior.

 

[painted wolf]

getting back to you about this ?..........the eye is super complex, the process of sight is more complex, physical balance, more complexity, my brain controls emotions, can do abstract thought, i have a will, and desires that differ completely from my twin, i cannot believe that humans evolved into this if there is no intellegent thought guiding evolution, or if any of these things, or many others, happened randomly (i use the word random as accidently)
perhaps the origins of life is where i seek answers, and not evolution.

Yes but for all the complexity we have... there are dozens of less complex examples out there. For example with eyes, there are creatures that get by with simple cells that can only detect light vs. dark. There are others that can tell the direction the light is coming from and so on...

There is a nice demonstration of how something as complex as the eye can arise naturally. And this development wouldn't be random... better eyes are an advantage to those critters that develop them and can energetically afford them.

If you want there to be an intelligence behind that natural progression that is fine... so long as you realize that this is not a scientifically supportable idea. I'm rather unscientific in this area myself.

And you would naturally have different thoughts than your twin... you are not completely identical. There are very subtle differences between you. Even perfect clones are not truly identical to their original. That is part of the beauty of having randomness in the system.

wa:do

 

[slowbreath]

These are valid and interesting problems for Biology. Your questions are not the typical creationist propaganda, just valid scientific questions. We can try to answer them here if you like, but I think you would benefit most from a good, popular book about evolution. It is very interesting stuff, IMO. I like Evolution, Triumph of an Idea, by Carl Zimmer, not least because it has lots of good pictures, but there are other good ones.

If you like, I will do my best to explain the basic concept of the Theory of Evolution (ToE). Once you understand it, it explains so much about why living things are the way they are. IMO, it explains a lot about why people act the way they do. It has added immensely to my understanding of human behavior.

i dont think i would hesitate to get these books from a library, but at the risk of sounding lazy, i wonder if you know of something in dvd format.........i do tend to retain quite a bit from dvd because i can watch it over and over.

 

[Civil Shephard]

do you mind if i ask what your religious background is?

I once got a birthday present in Sunday School from an elderly woman... it was a Nutragous Bar. I think that may be my relgious background. But seriously I've studied Christ teachings mostly. And I'm decidedly a disciple of Christ as my source for truth and inspiration. I don't believe in the bible as much as I believe in the words of the men who wrote from their view point and the highlights of Gods grace and mercy through out the bible in what I think of as the more sensible scripture.

variety in evolution to me is the random wonder of creation where folks have every right to chose to believe in either the entirely random or the entirely divine. For me I suppose its a bit of both... I just try to avoid extremes cause to my reading the God of Moses and Jesus is the original awareness of being I AM looking for honest minds and truth seeking hearts over those who put their faith in their affiliation with the signs above the doors.

 

[painted wolf]

i dont think i would hesitate to get these books from a library, but at the risk of sounding lazy, i wonder if you know of something in dvd format.........i do tend to retain quite a bit from dvd because i can watch it over and over.

Carl Zimmer's book "Evolution: triumph of an idea" is the companion book for the Nova special on Evolution... you can find out more here. Evolution

NOVA | Evolution

wa:do

 

[Dan4reason]

i know this is off subject, but i see you were raised by mormons, and probably rejected the teachings.......although i was not a mormon, i think we have similar feelings because of our backgrounds.

I am sure we do. My casting off of Mormon mythology has inspired me to seek real, scientific explanations for questions.

 

[slowbreath]

Carl Zimmer's book "Evolution: triumph of an idea" is the companion book for the Nova special on Evolution... you can find out more here. Evolution

NOVA | Evolution

wa:do

thanks, i'll look into this stuff.
i think i'm not getting to the heart of what i think i'm discoving i'm probably really searching for, i think i might put out a thread for info on the origins of life, but i'm afraid i'll do alot of sifting through some very off the wall stuff.

 

[slowbreath]

I am sure we do. My casting off of Mormon mythology has inspired me to seek real, scientific explanations for questions.

would any of your questions be concerning the origins of life? ive been spoon fed christian propanda since before i was born and there did come a point in my life when i could no longer believe it, and my relgious background was hard core.

 

[Dan4reason]

would any of your questions be concerning the origins of life? ive been spoon fed christian propanda since before i was born and there did come a point in my life when i could no longer believe it, and my relgious background was hard core.

There are some pretty good theories of abiogenesis the best being the RNA world hypothesis. RNA can replicate and do well without proteins even though proteins sure helped things. Scientists were able to observe RNA developing from solutions that are similar to those in the early earth in labs. Here is a good wikipedia article.
RNA world hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This video is a fun an informative explanation of abiogenesis.
[youtube]v8nYTJf62sE[/youtube]
YouTube - 3 - The Origin of Life Made Easy
The user potholder54 is a very fun and intelligent presenter of evolution, abiogenesis, global warming and cosmology on youtube.