Veda: Brahmins-Kshatriyas: Dravidian-Tamil-Sudra-Dalit-Untouchables

[Aupmanyav]

I know. If you go to a dalit/Christian site, then you cannot expect an unbiased representation. That is why I say Sacred-texts.com is the best.

 

[paarsurrey]

I know. If you go to a dalit/Christian site, then you cannot expect an unbiased representation. That is why I say Sacred-texts.com is the best.

Why is one afraid of the Truth? If one can be "unbiased" why not a "Dalit/Christian"? What is wrong with them? Who issues the license of being unbiased? No-one has any hegemony on being unbiased. Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Oh yes, some times it is possible to find clues, sometimes it is not. But the hymns that you posted has clear clues.

"4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones fled to destruction.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless: then the Navagvas put forth all their power.
(Aup explains: Navagwahas were priests who completted their yearly sacrificil cycle in nine-months)
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and lauds thee.
(This refers to the poet who was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra)
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu* when he battled.
(Sage Kutsa was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra and Dasadyu is the Chief/leader who has arranged the Yajna)"

* Griffith has the name as Dasadyu.
Why are you not using Griffith's translation at Sacredtexts.com? That is world-renowned unbiased. The one that you have quoted from is a biased Christian site. The explanations given are intentionally wrong. You always seem to select the wrong site.

As for the Battle of ten kings, here is the hymn: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07018.htm

5 What though the floods spread widely, Indra made them shallow and easy for Sudās to traverse.
He, worthy of our praises, caused the Simyu, foe of our hymn, to curse the rivers' fury.
6 Eager for spoil was Turvaśa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
The Bhṛgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.
(Purodas was the leader of the combined armies opposing Sudas)
7 Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.
Yet to the Trtsus came the Ārya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.
(These were the people who joined together against Sudas. Pakthas (Pashtoons) are mentions here)
12 Thou, thunder-armed, o’erwhelmedst in the waters famed ancient Kavasa and then the Druhyu.
Others here claiming friendship to their friendship, devoted unto thee, in thee were joyful.
(Tribes, whose armies were washed away)

It is a detailed description of the attacking tribes and what happened to them. It has nothing to do with dalits or dravidas. The war took place somewhere around Lahore region. I hope you are able to see the clues.

"7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and lauds thee.
(This refers to the poet who was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra)"

• Of course the Brahmin priest is celebrating the conquest on the Harrappan people and the destruction of their towns/cities and himself drinking the liquor. It is the priest that drinks, not Indra. Right? Please

Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why is one afraid of the Truth? If one can be "unbiased" why not a "Dalit/Christian"? What is wrong with them? Who issues the license of being unbiased? No-one has any hegemony on being unbiased.

The mention of 'navagwahas' (priests completing their ritual cycle in nine-months because that was followed by a night of two or three months) is from the time when Aryans lived in Arctic circle. There were no dalits or dravidas there. Christian missionaries have taken 'dasyu' as dalits or dravidas. Is there a proof for that? It is like saying Iblis was a dalit or a dravida, unrelated things.

 

[paarsurrey]

The mention of 'navagwahas' (priests completing their ritual cycle in nine-months because that was followed by a night of two or three months) is from the time when Aryans lived in Arctic circle. There were no dalits or dravidas there. Christian missionaries have taken 'dasyu' as dalits or dravidas. Is there a proof for that? It is like saying Iblis was a dalit or a dravida, unrelated things.

It is one's wrong perception or illusion, Veda does not support that the Vedic people ever lived at Arctic. Latest, the people tell, they came from Australian side. The flora and fauna, the inanimate and animates mentioned in the Veda don't support the Arctic theory, for sure. Right? Please
Regards

 

[atanu]

It is an old tool of the clergy to restrict the masses from reading the scriptures themselves. The clergy think that if people will read them themselves then they won't be needed, anymore.
The scriptures are self-explanatory from the context of the verses inside the scripture, else the narrators/scribes/clergy have interfered with it by adding things, subtracting things and concealing things. They need to be exposed. Right? Please
Regards

And it is your bloated ego that thinks that you are equipped to penetrate the esoteric depth of the Vedas. Else why should you make divisive posts, one after another.

The Vedas are followed by brahmanas, arayanakas and the upanishads. Rishis through deep meditation explain the meaning of Vedic verses. It is said in the Veda itself that one who does not know the nature of pure Consciousness, has no use for the Vedas.

 

[paarsurrey]

And it is your bloated ego that thinks that you are equipped to penetrate the esoteric depth of the Vedas. Else why should you make divisive posts, one after another.
The Vedas are followed by brahmanas, arayanakas and the upanishads. Rishis through deep meditation explain the meaning of Vedic verses. It is said in the Veda itself that one who does not know the nature of pure Consciousness, has no use for the Vedas.

Has one read the Veda oneself and does one have a rishi or a Satguru ? If yes, then explain the meaning of the following Hymn:

[01-033] HYMN XXXIII. Indra.
1 Come, fain for booty let us seek to Indra: yet more shall he increase his care that guides us.
Will not the Indestructible endow us with perfect knowledge of this wealth, of cattle?
2 I fly to him invisible Wealth-giver as flies the falcon to his cherished eyrie,
With fairest hymns of praise adoring Indra, whom those who laud him must invoke in battle.
3 Mid all his host, he bindeth on the quiver he driveth cattle from what foe he pleaseth:
Gathering up great store of riches, Indra. be thou no trafficker with us, most mighty.
4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones fled to destruction.
5 Fighting with pious worshippers, the riteless turned and fled, Indra! with averted faces.
When thou, fierce Lord of the Bay Steeds, the Stayer, blewest from earth and heaven and sky the
godless.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless. then the Navagvas put forth all their power.
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and
lauds thee.
8 Adorned with their array of gold and jewels, they o'er the earth a covering veil extended.
Although they hastened, they o'ercame not Indra: their spies he compassed with the Sun of morning.
9 As thou enjoyest heaven and earth, O Indra, on every side surrounded with thy greatness,
So thou with priests bast blown away the Dasyu, and those who worship not with those who
worship.
10 They who pervaded earth's extremest limit subdued not with their charms the Wealth-bestower:
Indra, the Bull, made his ally the thunder, and with its light milked cows from out the darkness.
11 The waters flowed according to their nature; he raid the navigable streams waxed mighty.
Then Indra, with his spirit concentrated, smote him for ever with his strongest weapon.
12 Indra broke through Ilibisa's strong castles, and Suspa with his horn he cut to pieces:
Thou, Maghavan, for all his might and swiftness, slewest thy fighting foeman with thy thunder
13 Fierce on his enemies fell Indra's weapon: with. his sharp bull he rent their forts in pieces.
He with his thunderbolt dealt blows on Vrtra; and conquered, executing all his purpose.
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu when he battled,
The dust of trampling horses rose to heaven, and Svitri's son stood up again for conquest.
15 Svitra's mild steer, O Maghavan thou helpest in combat for the land, mid Tugra's houses.
Long stood they there before the task was ended: thou wast the master of the foemen's treasure.

http://www.sanskritweb.net/rigveda/griffith.pdf
One may take the needed help of all brahmanas, arayanakas and the upanishads as well as of the rishis, if one likes. Please
Also please let us when this HYMN was revealed of the Vedic Period. Where the person on whom it was revealed was living, the region or the country, prior to migration to Bharat or in Bharat ? Please
Anybody, please
Regards

 

[atanu]

Has one read the Veda oneself and does one have a rishi or a Satguru ? If yes, then explain the meaning of the following Hymn:

[01-033] HYMN XXXIII. Indra.
1 Come, fain for booty let us seek to Indra: yet more shall he increase his care that guides us.
Will not the Indestructible endow us with perfect knowledge of this wealth, of cattle?
2 I fly to him invisible Wealth-giver as flies the falcon to his cherished eyrie,
With fairest hymns of praise adoring Indra, whom those who laud him must invoke in battle.
3 Mid all his host, he bindeth on the quiver he driveth cattle from what foe he pleaseth:
Gathering up great store of riches, Indra. be thou no trafficker with us, most mighty.
4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones fled to destruction.
5 Fighting with pious worshippers, the riteless turned and fled, Indra! with averted faces.
When thou, fierce Lord of the Bay Steeds, the Stayer, blewest from earth and heaven and sky the
godless.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless. then the Navagvas put forth all their power.
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and
lauds thee.
8 Adorned with their array of gold and jewels, they o'er the earth a covering veil extended.
Although they hastened, they o'ercame not Indra: their spies he compassed with the Sun of morning.
9 As thou enjoyest heaven and earth, O Indra, on every side surrounded with thy greatness,
So thou with priests bast blown away the Dasyu, and those who worship not with those who
worship.
10 They who pervaded earth's extremest limit subdued not with their charms the Wealth-bestower:
Indra, the Bull, made his ally the thunder, and with its light milked cows from out the darkness.
11 The waters flowed according to their nature; he raid the navigable streams waxed mighty.
Then Indra, with his spirit concentrated, smote him for ever with his strongest weapon.
12 Indra broke through Ilibisa's strong castles, and Suspa with his horn he cut to pieces:
Thou, Maghavan, for all his might and swiftness, slewest thy fighting foeman with thy thunder
13 Fierce on his enemies fell Indra's weapon: with. his sharp bull he rent their forts in pieces.
He with his thunderbolt dealt blows on Vrtra; and conquered, executing all his purpose.
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu when he battled,
The dust of trampling horses rose to heaven, and Svitri's son stood up again for conquest.
15 Svitra's mild steer, O Maghavan thou helpest in combat for the land, mid Tugra's houses.
Long stood they there before the task was ended: thou wast the master of the foemen's treasure.

http://www.sanskritweb.net/rigveda/griffith.pdf
One may take the needed help of all brahmanas, arayanakas and the upanishads as well, if one likes. Please
Also please let us when this HYMN was revealed of the Vedic Period. Where the person on whom it was revealed was living, the region or the country, prior to migration to Bharat or in Bharat ? Please

Regards

Yes, I have Satguru. I know that rishis are my senses.

I have not read whole Veda, since it is about karma kanda (pertaining to creation). But I have read the Upanishads and Gita, which constitute the essence.

And I do not intend to re-write the Vedas like you do.

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes, I have Satguru. I know that rishis are my senses.
I have not read whole Veda, since it is about karma kanda (pertaining to creation). But I have read the Upanishads and Gita, which constitute the essence.
And I do not intend to re-write the Vedas like you do.

Does one's senses work for everybody or just for one's own use? Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes, I have Satguru. I know that rishis are my senses.
I have not read whole Veda, since it is about karma kanda (pertaining to creation). But I have read the Upanishads and Gita, which constitute the essence.
And I do not intend to re-write the Vedas like you do.

There are other people here who think that Satgurus are separate persons/individual who teach Veda, one can learn from the. They take rishis literally, as Vedas was revealed to rishis in Vedic-Period and not on one, but one has taken it symbolically/metaphorically/allegorically. Right? Please

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Oh yes, some times it is possible to find clues, sometimes it is not. But the hymns that you posted has clear clues.

"4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones fled to destruction.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless: then the Navagvas put forth all their power.
(Aup explains: Navagwahas were priests who completted their yearly sacrificil cycle in nine-months)
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and lauds thee.
(This refers to the poet who was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra)
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu* when he battled.
(Sage Kutsa was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra and Dasadyu is the Chief/leader who has arranged the Yajna)"

* Griffith has the name as Dasadyu.
Why are you not using Griffith's translation at Sacredtexts.com? That is world-renowned unbiased. The one that you have quoted from is a biased Christian site. The explanations given are intentionally wrong. You always seem to select the wrong site.

As for the Battle of ten kings, here is the hymn: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07018.htm

5 What though the floods spread widely, Indra made them shallow and easy for Sudās to traverse.
He, worthy of our praises, caused the Simyu, foe of our hymn, to curse the rivers' fury.
6 Eager for spoil was Turvaśa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
The Bhṛgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.
(Purodas was the leader of the combined armies opposing Sudas)
7 Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.
Yet to the Trtsus came the Ārya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.
(These were the people who joined together against Sudas. Pakthas (Pashtoons) are mentions here)
12 Thou, thunder-armed, o’erwhelmedst in the waters famed ancient Kavasa and then the Druhyu.
Others here claiming friendship to their friendship, devoted unto thee, in thee were joyful.
(Tribes, whose armies were washed away)

It is a detailed description of the attacking tribes and what happened to them. It has nothing to do with dalits or dravidas. The war took place somewhere around Lahore region. I hope you are able to see the clues.

Kindly read post #27 in this thread and answer the questions* given, I have quoted the full text of the HYMN from a Veda believers site . Please

*"One may take the needed help of all brahmanas, arayanakas and the upanishads as well as of the rishis, if one likes. Please
Also please let us when this HYMN was revealed of the Vedic Period. Where the person on whom it was revealed was living, the region or the country, prior to migration to Bharat or in Bharat ?"
Anybody, please

Regards

 

[JediConsular]

It is an old tool of the clergy to restrict the masses from reading the scriptures themselves. The clergy think that if people will read them themselves then they won't be needed, anymore.
The scriptures are self-explanatory from the context of the verses inside the scripture, else the narrators/scribes/clergy have interfered with it by adding things, subtracting things and concealing things. They need to be exposed. Right? Please
Regards

There are no clergies in Sanatana Dharma.

 

[paarsurrey]

There are no clergies in Sanatana Dharma.

Welcome in the forum and in this thread. Aren't Brahmins the priestly class clergy?:
“Two smrti-tradition texts which are still of great use: the Grhya Sutras and the Crauta Sutras. The Sutras were roughly set down between 400 and 200 BCE, although this is just scholastic guess work. The Grhya Sutras deal specifically with household ritual to be performed by the householder. The Crauta Sutras depict elaborate rituals which included one or more clergy.”
“Yajna is the term for Vedic ritual. It differs from many religious rituals in that it is public and elaborate, yet does not necessarily take place in an established enclosed space such as a temple or church. This is to be performed by the clergy and follows very strict rules.
The Vedics had their clergy split up into different types. Each of these types was responsible for a specific part in the ritual and attached to a specific Veda. Each member of the clergy went through years of training and was considered an expert in their field.”
https://www.adf.org/rituals/vedic/why-vedism.html
Please

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Veda: Brahmins-Kshatriyas: Dravidian-Tamil-Sudra-Dalit-Untouchables

One may like to read the following:
"When the Gupta era eventually declined and ended, Brahmanism had taken a vice-like grip on Indian culture and society, with the royal class the Brahmin clergy colluding to keep the masses in perpetual submission and ignorance, in the immediately succeeding centuries."
http://nirmukta.com/2012/07/16/hindu-caste-apologetics-and-the-culpability-of-the-pre-adi-sankara-era/
Please

Regards

 

[JediConsular]

Welcome in the forum and in this thread. Aren't Brahmins the priestly class clergy?:
“Two smrti-tradition texts which are still of great use: the Grhya Sutras and the Crauta Sutras. The Sutras were roughly set down between 400 and 200 BCE, although this is just scholastic guess work. The Grhya Sutras deal specifically with household ritual to be performed by the householder. The Crauta Sutras depict elaborate rituals which included one or more clergy.”
“Yajna is the term for Vedic ritual. It differs from many religious rituals in that it is public and elaborate, yet does not necessarily take place in an established enclosed space such as a temple or church. This is to be performed by the clergy and follows very strict rules.
The Vedics had their clergy split up into different types. Each of these types was responsible for a specific part in the ritual and attached to a specific Veda. Each member of the clergy went through years of training and was considered an expert in their field.”
https://www.adf.org/rituals/vedic/why-vedism.html
Please

Regards

Brahmins are considered to be the priestly or scholar caste, but not as clergies. It seems the author of the article is unaware that Sanatana Dharma has no clergy (priests would be a better word).

 

[paarsurrey]

Veda: Brahmins-Kshatriyas: Dravidian-Tamil-Sudra-Dalit-Untouchables

One may like to read #24 in another thread, which is also much related here. Please
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is one's wrong perception or illusion, Veda does not support that the Vedic people ever lived at Arctic. Latest, the people tell, they came from Australian side. The flora and fauna, the inanimate and animates mentioned in the Veda don't support the Arctic theory, for sure. Right? Please
Regards

Reverse migration? That will the against the accepted scientific view that South-East Asia, Oceana and and Australia were populated by people migrating from India. But I am not surprised by Muslims having a completely opposite view of what is generally accepted in the world. Do you know what flora and fauna is mentioned in the Vedas?

"When the Gupta era eventually declined and ended, Brahmanism had taken a vice-like grip on Indian culture and society, with the royal class the Brahmin clergy colluding to keep the masses in perpetual submission and ignorance, in the immediately succeeding centuries."

Division of society exist among all people, in many countries, now they take the shape of haves and have-nots. Divisions were there in the Aryan society as well in the indigenous society. Aryans had their 'varna' system, the indigenous had their 'jati' (tribal, professional) system. When the two combined, we got the current caste system. Each 'varna' consisting of many 'jatis'. But legally, India has abandoned the caste system. There is no bar for education or profession for any one competent. The schedule castes, scheduled tribes, and caste coming under the 'other backward classes' get special privileges in all fields of life.

 

[Aupmanyav]

[01-033] HYMN XXXIII. Indra.

We have talked about this hymn in an earlier topic, when I said that Kutsa was the priest and Dagadyu was the Chief for whom he was conducting the ritual. It is an old Arctic Home poem. Wherever, there is a mention of 'dasyus', take the hymn to be one of the older ones. The other indicators are the mention of 'Navagwahas', mention of the morning sun (it is actually the first rising of the sun after the Acrtic night on the day of vernal equinox and the beginning of the Aryan year, Navruz, Nauroze). Then there is a mention of the ice melting and the flow of water increasing in the rivers as it happens in Spring. The pointers are:

then the Navagvas put forth all their power. .. their spies he compassed with the Sun of morning. .. The waters flowed according to their nature; he raid the navigable streams waxed mighty.

The booty is the ease with which now the Aryan cattle will be able to graze and the crops which would provide them with Barley, that is what they ate. The booty was not jewels, gold or silver. Aryans were simple people.

In reply to your post # 31, the hymn belongs to a period when the Aryans had not migrated to India.

 

[paarsurrey]

We have talked about this hymn in an earlier topic, when I said that Kutsa was the priest and Dagadyu was the Chief for whom he was conducting the ritual. It is an old Arctic Home poem. Wherever, there is a mention of 'dasyus', take the hymn to be one of the older ones. The other indicators are the mention of 'Navagwahas', mention of the morning sun (it is actually the first rising of the sun after the Acrtic night on the day of vernal equinox and the beginning of the Aryan year, Navruz, Nauroze). Then there is a mention of the ice melting and the flow of water increasing in the rivers as it happens in Spring.
The waters flowed according to their nature; he raid the navigable streams waxed mighty.
The booty is the ease with which now the Aryan cattle will be able to graze and the crops which would provide them with Barley, that is what they ate. The booty was not jewels, gold or silver. Aryans were simple people.

One is locked in the "snow and ice" of the Arctic, unless one comes to the "Indian-sub-Continent" one wont' realize as to what the so called "Arya/n" did with the locals for instance with Harappans and others. The wrong-doers seldom realize and want to hush up the things under one excuse or the other. Please read from the following site and address the points made by the Harappans, if one is serious in this connection:
http://mailstar.net/rig-veda.html
Please
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no evidence of war in Harappa or Mohanjodaro. Don't try to make up stories and read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Collapse_and_Late_Harappan