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Vegetarian, good for the body 'and' the soul?

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Well, you cut out the part of the quote where I made a point of saying that any diet needed to be well balanced.

You cannot get ENOUGH B12 from plant sources alone. If you are vegan, you MUST take B12 supplements or you will end up with a vitamin deficiency. Human beings are biologically omnivores. We are MEANT to ingest animal products. If you make the decision to go against your nature, then you must go out of your way to make sure you get all your nutrients, and that necessarily includes B12 supplements.

Jews do not eat the hind portion of meat, because of Jacob's thigh being injured. These portions of the cow are sold to non-Jews, who have no prohibition against this (just like non-Jews can eat pork and shellfish and not sin).

Non-Jews have prohibitions against eating kosher or halal foods (thinking that these ultra-pure, and/or rabbi inspected foods are somehow unclean). On the TV show, "King of the Hill," their son Bobby Hill loved to eat Jewish cuisine, but it was concluded that it has germs (that might cause gout), so it was unfit for human consumption. Such propaganda has ostracized Jews for centuries.

Orthodox Jewish dietary laws also include not drinking the milk of the animal that is consumed because that would be too cruel.

Some gripe that Jews have a ceremony of ringing a chicken's neck. They think that is cruel if the chicken is not to be eaten. It is a reminder that chickens can be killed quickly for humane purposes.

Jews are taught to inflict as little pain as possible on animals.

Kosher and halal meats are from animals that are killed quickly (which prevents adrenaline), and are drained of blood. It is the blood that causes meats to taste funny and rot quicker. In the middle east, many techniques (like salting) were used to prevent rotting before the advent of modern refrigeration. Camel caravans transported foods for months across the burning desert sands, and the foods were preserved to prevent rotting. Thus, kefir cheese lasts for months, as opposed to Philadelphia cream cheese (which almost tastes the same) lasts only for a couple of weeks.

In America, cows are butchered at 8 months old because it is too expensive to feed them for another year. Sometimes they are shocked to death with an electrode inserted in their butts. Chickens are often raised in cages too small to stand up in...for their entire lives. This is one way to keep roosters from crowing (they only crow if they can raise their heads). Diseases are rife in crowded conditions. California recently passed laws forcing chicken farmers to let them run free for a few hours per day, and restricting human consumption of horse meat (because a horse was a noble beast of the old west).

Vegetarians must be careful to eat a balanced diet of the proper proteins, vitamins, and minerals. Certainly, they are more humane than any.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Well, you cut out the part of the quote where I made a point of saying that any diet needed to be well balanced.

You cannot get ENOUGH B12 from plant sources alone. If you are vegan, you MUST take B12 supplements or you will end up with a vitamin deficiency. Human beings are biologically omnivores. We are MEANT to ingest animal products. If you make the decision to go against your nature, then you must go out of your way to make sure you get all your nutrients, and that necessarily includes B12 supplements.

Jews do not eat the hind portion of meat, because of Jacob's thigh being injured. These portions of the cow are sold to non-Jews, who have no prohibition against this (just like non-Jews can eat pork and shellfish and not sin).

What Every Vegan Should Know About Vitamin B12

The website above, from the Vegan Society, says that certain plants contain small amounts of B12.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Other animals, though, have little choice in their diets, moreover, they aren't moral agents, nor do they have an understanding of the consequences of their actions.

Me, I'm veggie because I have a choice, and I find it morally repugnant to cause or contribute to unnecessary pain or suffering in other beings capable of experiencing these, as well as because killing a healthy, usually young, animal is a theft of life.
I also prefer to tread fairly lightly on the planet, and not cause unnecessary ecological damage.

Cats treat mice as toys....mice suffer.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
We do Italian sometimes too. I use rice pasta because I'm gluten intolerant. There are several European cuisines that are easily adapted to vegetarianism. Greek comes to mind immediately.

Mom used to cook noodles until they were one mass (like a wonton, dumpling, or matzo ball), mixed with uncooked noodles. But, I ate it anyway because I was a "gluten" for punishment. My stomach upset was not due to gluten, so I told the doctor that I don't need a gluteus minimus diet.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Non-Jews have prohibitions against eating kosher or halal foods (thinking that these ultra-pure, and/or rabbi inspected foods are somehow unclean).
I'm wondering if you have mispoken. You seem to be saying that non-Jews are NOT supposed to eat things like a rib eye steak. Is that what you meant to say?

My second question is where are these prohibitions given to non-Jews? Because they certainly aren't in the Torah. The Torah gives 613 laws to Jews. With very few exceptions, it doesn't really go into what is expected of non-Jews.

On the TV show, "King of the Hill," their son Bobby Hill loved to eat Jewish cuisine, but it was concluded that it has germs (that might cause gout), so it was unfit for human consumption. Such propaganda has ostracized Jews for centuries.
I have not watched this episode, so I can't speak to what happened during it. However, I know that it is a work of fiction, not a religious text used by anyone to know what they can and cannot eat.

Orthodox Jewish dietary laws also include not drinking the milk of the animal that is consumed because that would be too cruel.
It goes beyond the literal not eating a kid (baby goat) cooked in its mother's milk. The rabbis have interpreted this to be a prohibition against eating any dairy and meat together, even cooking them in the pans. So, for most religious Jews, no cheeseburgers (Reform have a different approach to halakhah).

Some gripe that Jews have a ceremony of ringing a chicken's neck. They think that is cruel if the chicken is not to be eaten. It is a reminder that chickens can be killed quickly for humane purposes.
Actually if you strangle the chicken, it is rendered nonkosher. In order to be eaten by religious Jews, the slaughter the animal (including chickens) must be done by a carefully trained person, who uses an ultra sharp knife to cut the throat in a single slicing motion. The animal is unconscious within seconds, and so it is considered a very humane slaughter method.

Generally speaking, you are going into great deal trying to explain to me Jewish kosher laws, and proper sheching, which as a Jew I'm already familiar with. Why would you think that you know more about this than a Jew?


Vegetarians must be careful to eat a balanced diet of the proper proteins, vitamins, and minerals. Certainly, they are more humane than any.
Vegetarianism is not the normal diet for human beings -- we are omnivores. For this reason, a vegetarian has to be very meticulous in their choice of foods to make sure that for example they get all eight essential amino acids. It can be done if this is just a regular vegetarian who eats dairy products. The same cannot be said for the vegan, for whom getting all their vitamins and minerals and proteins is next to impossible, indeed quite completely impossible when it comes to vitamin B12 -- the vegan MUST take B12 supplements in order to avoid a vitamin deficiency. Without animal products at all, it just goes too far outside what is natural for the human omnivore.

I am sympathetic to the fact that many vegetarians avoid meat for the sake of compassion. I completely understand. However, not everyone shares the same dietary needs. For some people, vegetarianism is disastrous, because it requires the consumption of too many carbohydrates and not enough protein (I'm speaking of those whose bodies are inclined towards diabetes). If one's individual dietary needs require a low carb, high protein diet, quite honestly vegetarianism is just too unhealthy an option.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why is it that Pagans (which you claim to be) are more kindhearted that the Christians who go to war and make torture camps?
Are you kidding me? You think that pagans of old didn't go to war, and didn't enslave people, and didn't commit genocide? Lady, you are in a state of severe ignorance. Such things existed LONG before Christianity came into being. Human beings are human beings and you have good and bad people in every religion. Pagans are NOT somehow more ethical.

I find it hard to believe that all of those who espouse Christianity will make it into heaven while non-Christians, with good hearts, will not. Frankly, I think that one must do the things that Jesus would do, rather than believe that Jesus once existed, in order to get into heaven.
I'm not sure why you are making this complaint to me. Not only is it off topic, but I'm not even Christian.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I
Vegetarianism is not the normal diet for human beings -- we are omnivores. For this reason, a vegetarian has to be very meticulous in their choice of foods to make sure that for example they get all eight essential amino acids. It can be done if this is just a regular vegetarian who eats dairy products. The same cannot be said for the vegan, for whom getting all their vitamins and minerals and proteins is next to impossible, indeed quite completely impossible when it comes to vitamin B12 -- the vegan MUST take B12 supplements in order to avoid a vitamin deficiency.

There are no "normal diets" for humans, due to variations in environmental conditions.

We are omnivores, but the extent of how much meat vs plant-based foods we eat varies.


Yes. Not enough to meet human needs. All vegans MUST take B12 supplements or they will be vitamin deficient. B12 deficiency is a chronic, endemic problem in India, where veganism is common. Vitamin B12 Deficiency is Endemic in Indian Population: A Perspective from North India

Nor do those who follow a typical meat and potatoes diet of the western world get enough fiber and a variety of other vitamins.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I find it hard to believe that all of those who espouse Christianity will make it into heaven while non-Christians, with good hearts, will not. Frankly, I think that one must do the things that Jesus would do, rather than believe that Jesus once existed, in order to get into heaven.

It's hard to believe because it's not true.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So you went back to eating meat???
Yep, largely because it was a struggle to cook two separate courses, thus I compromised and only have meat no more than twice per week, and that includes all meals.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I went a year without meat then went to visit my parents for the holidays (during which I allow myself to indulge).`My mom made me a steak and that wreaked havoc. I was rolling around in pain and my stomach was growling so loud, my mom not only heard me 2 rooms over but thought it was their poodle and yelled out to me, "what's that dog growling about?" :confounded::flushed::laughing:
Oh ya, I can relate to that!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I find it hard to believe that all of those who espouse Christianity will make it into heaven while non-Christians, with good hearts, will not. Frankly, I think that one must do the things that Jesus would do, rather than believe that Jesus once existed, in order to get into heaven.
That's not true with Catholicism and some mainline Protestant churches. It's really more the fundamentalists that believe as such.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The problem is that people in remote areas do not get enough food. Any so-called B12 deficiency has not seem to have inconvenienced us. Indian farm workers and laborers do heavy work for long hours.
The source quoted said 'not sufficient data'. Nutrition, world wide, is complex, and personalised. We take in 1000 or more ingredients, and all in varying amounts. Not only that, but each individual's genetic makeup is different. For some reasjn, B12 has been selected as a rallying point by the anti-vegetarian crowd, and is largely ignored by most vegetarians, although many do take a supplement. The lacking of all sorts of ingredients including Vitamins C and D due to not eating your vegetables is at least as large of a problem, if not worse. The other is excess consumption of downright unhealthy foods, like sugar.
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey, if we're competing, I have 37 years. Not got all the nutrients I need though, so have struggled to do well in dozens and dozens of long distance races. ;)

Ah! So that's why I can't run a mile...:rolleyes:

The source quoted said 'not sufficient data'. Nutrition, world wide, is complex, and personalised. We take in 1000 or more ingredients, and all in varying amounts. Not only that, but each individual's genetic makeup is different. For some reasjn, B12 has been selected as a rallying point by the anti-vegetarian crowd, and is largely ignored by most vegetarians, although many do take a supplement. The lacking of all sorts of ingredients including Vitamins C and D due to not eating your vegetables is at least as large of a problem, if not worse. The other is excess consumption of downright unhealthy foods, like sugar.

B12 is in almost all breakfast cereals. Or at least it was when I was vegan.

My health was never better in the 7 years I was vegan.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Ah! So that's why I can't run a mile...:rolleyes:



B12 is in almost all breakfast cereals. Or at least it was when I was vegan.

My health was never better in the 7 years I was vegan.
I consider nutrition sort of outside of vegetarianism. Yes, that's part of it, but if it's only vegetarian junk food, then good health isn't one of the reasons to be vegetarian. OTOH, meat and light meats aren't all that unhealthy if not overdone. Balance and the middle ground.

But yes, I'm currently going to a Heart Fit Clinic as follow up to the heat attack 6 years ago, and they totally recommend a vegetarian diet, with a ton of vegetables.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There are no "normal diets" for humans, due to variations in environmental conditions.

We are omnivores, but the extent of how much meat vs plant-based foods we eat varies.




Nor do those who follow a typical meat and potatoes diet of the western world get enough fiber and a variety of other vitamins.
The normal diet for a human being is an omnivore one. There is plenty of room for variation within that context. It can also be said that what is a good diet for one person and what is a good diet for another person can vary -- not everyone is healthy eating the same diet.

The western diet is unhealthy. It is not normal, because it does not have enough vegetables and fruits, and because it relies on processed foods, especially sugar and HFC.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The source quoted said 'not sufficient data'. Nutrition, world wide, is complex, and personalised.
:) We seem to do quite well with dal (lentils), roti (wheat flat bread), onion and green chili (if we get enough of that). And 50 % of our population is not obese.
 
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