Vegetarians and vegans and questions thereon

[standing_on_one_foot]

I have some friends of mine who believe that noanimals should be killed for food. That's cool, and I respect that, but I do wonder: what, if people were to stop eating meat, would happen to all the livestock (unrealistic as this is)? Not that I'm saying they're better off where they are, you understand, I'm just curious as to what the alternative would be. It's an awful lot of animals we're talking about. Anyone else have any thoughts?

 

[Natural Submission]

Remember, MAN is responsible for breeding all this livestock, otherwise there probably wouldn't be such a huge population. Where they go shouldn't be the concern RIGHT NOW. Rather, preventing them from being grown (not raised) only to be slaughtered so mankind can feast upon their dead bloody flesh should be the matter at hand.

Veganism is a VERY realistic thing in America. In almost every city on almost every block there is a grocery store. One can find all the provisions needed to meet all nutritional needs and live healthy. It is very hard for one to argue against vegetarianism in America. It is inexpensive and easy. However in other parts of the world it is perfectly acceptable to have meat in one's diet when needed. But in America it is just NOT practical or humane.

Check out the "Environmental Statistics..." article in the "Religious Debates" section if you get a chance.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I have some friends of mine who believe that noanimals should be killed for food. That's cool, and I respect that, but I do wonder: what, if people were to stop eating meat, would happen to all the livestock (unrealistic as this is)? Not that I'm saying they're better off where they are, you understand, I'm just curious as to what the alternative would be. It's an awful lot of animals we're talking about. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Introduce some large predators to redress the imbalance.
Or we could just turn them all into shoes.
Personally I'm a lover of the dead bloody flesh. The bloodier the better.

 

[Yerda]

The animals would form a travelling circus most likely, and with a few recruitments from non-domesticated animal species could put on quite a show. An elephant here, a blue whale there, maybe a few meat-eaters to keep them on their toes/hooves/paws/flippers.

Or alternatively they might lobby governments worldwide to aid them in the creation of a farmyard state, a promised farm. With a duck pond.

 

[Halcyon]

If everyone suddenly became vegan, the reality is that livestock would simply be killed and burnt (a total waste) as they would become useless and an unnecessary expense, the domesticate species' would then become extinct.

Although i seriously doubt we will ever stop eating meat, we have evolved to eat meat, look up the expensive tissue hypothesis for more information.

It's also a fallacy to suggest that being vegan an easy alternative to being omnivorous, you have to be VERY careful to eat enough of the right foods otherwise you'll quickly develop various vitamin deficiencies. Meat has a lot of the vitamins we need, in fact if you ate all the offal and bone marrow as well as the usual muscle, you might get away with eating nothing but meat, carnivores manage it. Although i wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Green Gaia]

If everyone suddenly became vegan, the reality is that livestock would simply be killed and burnt (a total waste)

I think it's unrealistic to think that everyone would suddenly become vegetarian or vegan. As the demand for meat decreases, (which I believe will happen for a number of reasons; economic, heatlh, moral, etc.), the number of animals bred will decrease and return to a natural number. Farmers will simply stop breeding so many animals. When there are fewer of these animals, they will be able to live more natural lives not cramped in a warehouse waiting to die.

as they would become useless and an unnecessary expense, the domesticate species' would then become extinct.

Only if we kill them all. Otherwise they would just return to being feral.

I don't have a problem with using animals as food, in general. There are cultures such as the Inuit who survive solely on animals with very little plant matter in their diets. I do, however, have a huge problem with how we get most of our meat and animal products today. I think they are unhealthy practices not only for the animals, but for humans as well.

 

[Halcyon]

Only if we kill them all. Otherwise they would just return to being feral.

Lol, imagine waking up to find a herd of cows in your back garden! Seriously though, i don't think our domestic livestock species could survive well without us now, we've bred them to be reliant upon us. Plus they're not like cats, feral cows (over here in england anyway) would not be tolerated.

I think it's unrealistic to think that everyone would suddenly become vegetarian or vegan. As the demand for meat decreases, (which I believe will happen for a number of reasons; economic, heatlh, moral, etc.), the number of animals bred will decrease and return to a natural number. Farmers will simply stop breeding so many animals. When there are fewer of these animals, they will be able to live more natural lives not cramped in a warehouse waiting to die.

Oh yes i agree, but i thought the original question was a hypothetical 'what if we all stopped eating meat...', i guess i might have interpreted it wrong.

I also have a problem with modern farming and killing methods, but not eating meat won't change them.

 

[Natural Submission]

If everyone suddenly became vegan, the reality is that livestock would simply be killed and burnt (a total waste) as they would become useless and an unnecessary expense, the domesticate species' would then become extinct.

Maize has addressed this well.

Although i seriously doubt we will ever stop eating meat, we have evolved to eat meat, look up the expensive tissue hypothesis for more information.

Actually we have devolved from our evolutionary potential in this regard. As Adam and all the first human's were all following an Edenic diet of Veganism, it was only later that man went against his/her nature and introduced flesh into his diet.

It's also a fallacy to suggest that being vegan an easy alternative to being omnivorous, you have to be VERY careful to eat enough of the right foods otherwise you'll quickly develop various vitamin deficiencies.

i see where your coming from, but it is certainly NOT a fallacy. i have been a vegan for many many years and i am very healthy and strong. The reality is that most people are ignorant of general nutrition and wouldn't know exactly what to eat in order to balance themselves. A short study course would enlighten anyone to how easy it really is.

Meat has a lot of the vitamins we need, in fact if you ate all the offal and bone marrow as well as the usual muscle, you might get away with eating nothing but meat, carnivores manage it. Although i wouldn't recommend it

True, meat DOES have all this, and so does a plant based diet. Meat is the easy way out for mankind as it gives him what he needs (although NOT promoting longevity) and he doesn't really have to know much about nutrition.

i am a vegan for the sake of YHWH/God/Allah and animal liberation. i am doing it to stop the bloodshed of animals. If we lived in a different time in history where it is hard to support a diet in general, let alone a vegan diet, then i would regretfully consume flesh only when needed.

 

[Natural Submission]

I also have a problem with modern farming and killing methods, but not eating meat won't change them.

To the contrary. If there is no demand for meat, all farming and slaughter would cease. Animals are born and raised for money, if no one pays for their flesh, the system would collapse.

 

[Doc]

I agree with about eveything Natural Submission has said here. I am a Vegan and I do not find the lifestyle painful. Then again, I never really have liked meat. My friends are fascinated by me (except the hunter of course). I find myself always arguing with my sister whether it right or wrong. I believe it is ok only for survival purposes. Like living in some deserted place with no plant products. Since we are not survivalists anymore, I see no need for meat in my diet.

 

[Prima]

Actually we have devolved from our evolutionary potential in this regard. As Adam and all the first human's were all following an Edenic diet of Veganism, it was only later that man went against his/her nature and introduced flesh into his diet.

Erm...hmm. Well, I suppose that that depends on what you believe. For one thing, there is no such thing as 'devolution' It's an incorrect term. For another, mankind hunted before he gathered before he planted. Going to a meatless diet is a sign of advance - it's related to levels of conciousness. You have the ability to consider what it is you're eating, AND choose not to eat it. It's also an advanced form of empathy - empathizing with a cow is more advanced than empathizing with a human being.

 

[michel]

God (in my faith) populated the world by ensuring that there was a simbiotic relationship between animals, reptiles, birds - every form of life on Earth.

I too have a knee-jerk reaction to eating meat; I watch a programme on the television in the morning which is devoted to following animals in wild game reserves - at the moment, it is centered on the one in Kenya (Sorry old name for the same country; I cannot get used to African countries changing names like I do socks). My wife adores the programme too, people with videocams follow a pack of hienas, one of lions and also leopards.
My wife always has to turn her head away when a lion or lioness catches up with a gazelle. That is nature.
NaturalSubmission PART QUOTE[Remember, MAN is responsible for breeding all this livestock, otherwise there probably wouldn't be such a huge population]
Er, I think you'll find that animals are quite capable of doing that without our help; indeed it is often the human being who has 'messed up' the originally well designed balance of nature.
Having invented pesticides and having killed off loads of bugs, we suddenly realized that God had already thought about keeping the balance of nature (And in a damn sight better way than we ever could)- now that we learned that hard lesson, we are slowly trying to reintroduce bugs to eat other bugs....etc, so as to get food that is hopefully a lot better for us. Like it or not, nature is not 'pretty' in the way it deals with the foodchain. What makes us think we are above the laws of nature?

 

[Prima]

^ About the natural balance bit...if you're in the South, take a look at kudzu. That was introduced to 'stop' a problem that we had created in the first place :biglaugh:

 

[Valjean]

I've heard this question about how we'd manage the herds of livestock if we stopped eating them many times, and it has always baffled me. The questioners evidently think the livestock are some sort of natural phenomenon that would continue to exist if people stopped breeding them. What a bizarre delusion! How can someone fail to understand that we create these animals just as we once created whalebone corsets, buggy-whips and model A Fords; that without our active management these beast's situation would be precisely that of the buggy-whips?

 

[Natural Submission]

Erm...hmm. Well, I suppose that that depends on what you believe. For one thing, there is no such thing as 'devolution' It's an incorrect term. For another, mankind hunted before he gathered before he planted. Going to a meatless diet is a sign of advance - it's related to levels of conciousness. You have the ability to consider what it is you're eating, AND choose not to eat it. It's also an advanced form of empathy - empathizing with a cow is more advanced than empathizing with a human being.

As man was created as an evolved creature, he began with a plant based diet IN EDEN. Upon coming to Earth was man led astray, but that's another story. i understand your point, being a vegan IS a higher station of consciousness that mankind needs to return to.

Forward to Eden.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

This was also when Adam and Eve were running around naked and didn't know right from wrong. Higher state of conciousness? Being vegan may be the right thing to do, based on various environmental and humane reasons, but I fail to see how Adam and Eve's diet plays into it. As long as we're going Biblical, the Tanach seems pretty clear that eating meat is alright, at least certain kinds of meat. Heck, there's a great deal about animal sacrifice, if it comes to that. Although, perhaps you're implying that this was part of the leading astray?

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I'm doing my part...eating a steak right now.

'Combat The Bovine Infestation: Eat a Cow Today!'

 

[Quoth The Raven]

As man was created as an evolved creature, he began with a plant based diet IN EDEN.

No, man evolved to what he is today, and continues to evolve.
Check out the fossil record some time.

 

[Halcyon]

Does it say in the OT that adam and eve were vegan?

If you look at the length of our gut you will see that it is not long enough to properly digest vegetable matter, it is far better suited to meat and fruit. In fact it was the greater amount of energy that our early ancestors received from meat that allowed our brains to grow large enough that we can now contemplate whether eating meat is right or wrong.

 

[Green Gaia]

If you look at the length of our gut you will see that it is not long enough to properly digest vegetable matter, it is far better suited to meat and fruit.

I've seen studies that prove that either way; that human's bodies are better suited for a plant based diet, and ones that say that we are better suited for a meat based diet. I'm not scientifically-minded, and I couldn't tell you which is correct or if either were biased. I think we just have to go with what feels right for our body and is in line with our morals and ethics and not judge those who choose differently.