Very Interesting Video: Please Discuss

[Poeticus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[youtube]AyaxRaTN02Q[/youtube]

 

[Vinayaka]

I liked it. He said some really wise things I agree with.
- getting rid of focusing on the narrative.
- putting it into more practice
- seeing Siva in jiva.
- enlightened beings just speak, not using scriptures

But it certainly isn't just India that needs to hear a message.

 

[Poeticus]

I liked it. He said some really wise things I agree with.
- getting rid of focusing on the narrative.
- putting it into more practice
- seeing Siva in jiva.
- enlightened beings just speak, not using scriptures

But it certainly isn't just India that needs to hear a message.

I have mixed feelings about the video. First and foremost, the person in the video is a wonderful speaker. The weaving of thoughts in order to convey a particular idea is sublimely done, and the argument put forth is a very strong one. What I agree most is that Hindus, particularly those in India, are very attached with the superficial. The deeper meanings are not looked into, and this hinders the development of esoteric perspectives when it comes to evaluating one's Dharma. It reminds me of the phrase, "we have been doing it because it has always been done this way; we have never really thought about the why". Therefore, knowing the reasons for why Dharma is conducted fosters a better understanding of the whole equation, in my opinion.

However, I didn't hear anything about scriptures. I heard about the "narratives", an indirect reference to "mythological" Purana-s, perhaps. But nothing so much about the scriptures. As a Mimamsaka, the Veda is foremost. The notion of Dharma, the importance of Jiva, and the conduct of both ritual and act, all can be found in the shAstra-s. We have these notions because of Shruti. Their foundation is in Shruti. One of the best ways to gain better insights regarding these important concepts is through the study of the shAstra-s. Hindus live in a time where the shAstra-s are readily available for usage in terms of learning from them. This was not always the case, and the strong presence of oral tradition confined the Veda to a select few. Now their availability is more profound. The usage of the scriptures in terms of study should always be paramount.

Many Hindus do not find shAstric contemplation to be necessary. And often find such a recommendation to resonate with Abrahamic paradigms, wherein scripture-citing is common. However, the correlation is completely false and very misleading. As a very knowledgeable and vigorously jnAnic Hindu member once said (paraphrasing Shantoham), the Veda is not scripture for it is Sound. When I do shAstric study, I am not "reading scripture". I am analyzing and observing the essence(s) of Dharma, how it varies, how it applies, how it is to be conducted, how it resonates with one's own heart. In reality, the verses of the Veda are not to be confined to a text, they are to be memorized and understood. Every traditional Hindu school exists today - and I mean every single traditional Hindu school one can think of - because guru-s and acharya-s would utilize the "particles" of "Sound" (verses of Shruti and sanctioned shAstra-s) in their defense when conducting vAda-bhiksha. It is through the grace and correct implementation of the beauty of that "Sound" that traditional Hindu philosophies have survived.

But what I really admired about the speaker was his message about tackling such difficult questions all the way to arriving at conclusions. Many Hindus don't know how to approach such "robust" questions, even though the "robustness" of Dharma plainly allows myriad opportunities.

 

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

It reminds me of those here in the US who studiously ignore the homeless family
begging at the local market, but who give to their church's overseas charity
mission fund, or become almost comically overwrought at the plight of Tibetans
or any other "exotic" people far from their own doorstep.

This would seem to be a universal trait, that to become involved at a personal,
individual level is frightening to many; and that the narratives (such as any tool
used to help the minds of the young become comfortable with complex concepts)
are clung or returned to because of a similar fear. Most thoughts, feelings and
actions of people over the course of day-to-day living are not deep, grand things-
they are small, shallow, and petty in nature, and without some sort of regular
touchstone that returns one's attention toward what is truly meaningful, religious
or spiritual practices become mechanistic, and the general great drift of the people
in general is in the direction of the small, shallow and petty, with superficial
gestures that are at heart impersonal and easy to make.

"Learning is something to get over with, so that one might support a living and
the family". The modern world is filled with such a multitude of petty tyrants that
precious little time is available to reflect on larger questions, for most.
So, what is grasped, what is clung to, is that which requires the least amount of
thought, of responsibility, of one's "free time".

Will this pattern repeat until even the custodians of dharma no longer remember
the heart of their lessons? I do not think so, but waiting for others to step in
is not an answer for me. Hopefully, all this makes some sort of sense to my fellow
members, it is just my thoughts and impressions at the moment..

JAI MATA DI

 

[Aupmanyav]

I heard about the "narratives", an indirect reference to "mythological" Purana-s, perhaps. But nothing so much about the scriptures. As a Mimamsaka, the Veda is foremost.

Puranas also are scriptures. Perhaps you should now agree that today's Hinduism is influenced more by Puranas than by Vedas. That is main-line Hinduism.

Who is the person giving the talks? Who are the members of the Hindu Academy? I am neither a Ramakrishnaite nor a Vivekanandaite (Is it a Bengali effort?). I would reserve a comment untill I know that. Just a lot of photographs but no details. Too much of humanism. Why do they term it as HinduAcademy? As for Videos, it is difficult to hear the talk for me even at max. volume. Hinduism is hale and hearty as far as any other religion goes. I do not think anything has gone wrong with Hinduism. If something has, will someone tell me about that? However, they have a video on 'Godless Hinduism'. They take so much trouble with the videos, why can't someone put it in the form of a readable article?

 

[Poeticus]

Puranas also are scriptures. Perhaps you should now agree that today's Hinduism is influenced more by Puranas than by Vedas. That is main-line Hinduism.

Who is the person giving the talks? Who are the members of the Hindu Academy? I am neither a Ramakrishnaite nor a Vivekanandaite. I would reserve a comment untill I know that. Just a lot of photographs but no details. Too much of humanism. Why do they term it as HinduAcademy? As for Videos, it is difficult to hear the talk for me even at max. volume.

I should have clarified: the reference to the "narratives" was in relation to literalist approaches (e.g., too much concentration on stories or "mythologies" at face value and not enough on philosophy nor Dharmic conduct). And I do not know the affiliation of the speaker. But I found the overall message of the video very agreeable. It's practically a message that stresses that one should better the community around oneself rather than attempt to spend a lot of energy in trying to offer the most perfect form of offering at a temple, for example. Plus, I presumed you would have enjoyed the video, at least somewhat. He mentioned "atheistic Hinduism" and its applicability historically.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

It reminds me of those here in the US who studiously ignore the homeless family
begging at the local market, but who give to their church's overseas charity
mission fund, or become almost comically overwrought at the plight of Tibetans
or any other "exotic" people far from their own doorstep.

This would seem to be a universal trait, that to become involved at a personal,
individual level is frightening to many; and that the narratives (such as any tool
used to help the minds of the young become comfortable with complex concepts)
are clung or returned to because of a similar fear. Most thoughts, feelings and
actions of people over the course of day-to-day living are not deep, grand things-
they are small, shallow, and petty in nature, and without some sort of regular
touchstone that returns one's attention toward what is truly meaningful, religious
or spiritual practices become mechanistic, and the general great drift of the people
in general is in the direction of the small, shallow and petty, with superficial
gestures that are at heart impersonal and easy to make.

"Learning is something to get over with, so that one might support a living and
the family". The modern world is filled with such a multitude of petty tyrants that
precious little time is available to reflect on larger questions, for most.
So, what is grasped, what is clung to, is that which requires the least amount of
thought, of responsibility, of one's "free time".

Will this pattern repeat until even the custodians of dharma no longer remember
the heart of their lessons? I do not think so, but waiting for others to step in
is not an answer for me. Hopefully, all this makes some sort of sense to my fellow
members, it is just my thoughts and impressions at the moment..

JAI MATA DI

Wonderful and well-conveyed insights, JMD. I appreciate your contribution, such wise words.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

thank you Poeticus ji for an interesting post , ...

I very much liked what he said and agree , yes we all need to ''grow up'' , this is not just a Hindu problem it is the purpose of life , the reason we are born , we are born to answer the question , to have experience of Dharma and to put it into practice .

It is all part of a process , what he refers to as ''superficial'' , ...it has its place , first we start with the learning of reverence , with worship , then naturaly as we progress this question raised will occur , what are we doing ? , why ? and should that worship or study be all ? .....of course not but one has to go through the process ...

we are born subordinate to God , and although the ultimate goal for many Hindus is to atain god there is a period fo time (many lifetimes) that we as embodied beings will go through to acchive this end , ...so it is a question of how we live out those lives whilst we are going through this process , ....some yes will cling to the superficial understanding , and to superficial practice , but we dont need to get stuck there , that dosent mean that we dont need to do it , it dosent mean that there will come a time when we dont need to worship , but that there will come a time when we worship and then we carry that understanding of divinity into every aspect of our lives , this is what I take him to mean when he says ...we should ''work with living God'' ......

It is true that not every one is ready for this yet , so they donate to the temple and let the temple take the responcibility of using this donation wisely , they deem the guru better qualified to make these descisions , but there comes a time when each of us is ready to start working for others and not only for the self , ...this begins with family life , ...when we are born everything is for the self we are exploring , studying growing , then we learn to give and to share , ..we enter family life .as we do so we take on responcibility for others , at first it is our family members , then realising what rsponcibility is we begin to be conscious of the greater comunity , when we feel strong enough we will offer wider support to the comunity , and even to those beyond our imidiate comunity . it is all a process we do not need to get stuck in any one place awareness needs to continualy develop , continualy grow . if it does not then we are not human we are simply folowing our animal instincts .

so to my mind worshiping in the superficial manner is fine it is part of the process , it is just that we dont need to get stuck there we need to grow , we need to do that and more

I realy liked what he says about worshiping a static god in the temple , ...this is very comfortable , .... but living and working with god on a daily basis , ...yes in life ''he kicks '' ...and yes this is good for us it is not so comfortable but it is what makes us grow .

 

[Aupmanyav]

Plus, I presumed you would have enjoyed the video, at least somewhat. He mentioned "atheistic Hinduism" and its applicability historically.

I stated my problem, hearing. Not yet got the ear plug.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

Who is the person giving the talks? Who are the members of the Hindu Academy? I am neither a Ramakrishnaite nor a Vivekanandaite (Is it a Bengali effort?). I would reserve a comment untill I know that. Just a lot of photographs but no details. Too much of humanism.

''Too much humanism'' ??? ......how can one have too much humanism ? well at least whilst we are here on this earth planet !

Why do they term it as HinduAcademy? As for Videos, it is difficult to hear the talk for me even at max. volume. Hinduism is hale and hearty as far as any other religion goes. I do not think anything has gone wrong with Hinduism. If something has, will someone tell me about that? However, they have a video on 'Godless Hinduism'.

do not worry about who they are or what they stand for in any other respect , let us just deal with the question

it is a very good question , but digressing onto other aspects merely serves as a dictraction ....

yes I agree hinduism is hale and hearty , but let us keep it that way by constantly exploring these questions , it does not matter who raised them . there is room for both traditional study and worship , ..and for being open to thought and developing our sadhana .

 

[Vinayaka]

I hadn't realised it before, but one of the problems I do have with these kinds of speeches or videos is the focus on the negative, with no focus on the positive. The fact of the matter is millions of Hindus are incredibly charitable with their fellow man.

 

[Poeticus]

namaskaram

thank you Poeticus ji for an interesting post , ...

I very much liked what he said and agree , yes we all need to ''grow up'' , this is not just a Hindu problem it is the purpose of life , the reason we are born , we are born to answer the question , to have experience of Dharma and to put it into practice .

It is all part of a process , what he refers to as ''superficial'' , ...it has its place , first we start with the learning of reverence , with worship , then naturaly as we progress this question raised will occur , what are we doing ? , why ? and should that worship or study be all ? .....of course not but one has to go through the process ...

we are born subordinate to God , and although the ultimate goal for many Hindus is to atain god there is a period fo time (many lifetimes) that we as embodied beings will go through to acchive this end , ...so it is a question of how we live out those lives whilst we are going through this process , ....some yes will cling to the superficial understanding , and to superficial practice , but we dont need to get stuck there , that dosent mean that we dont need to do it , it dosent mean that there will come a time when we dont need to worship , but that there will come a time when we worship and then we carry that understanding of divinity into every aspect of our lives , this is what I take him to mean when he says ...we should ''work with living God'' ......

It is true that not every one is ready for this yet , so they donate to the temple and let the temple take the responcibility of using this donation wisely , they deem the guru better qualified to make these descisions , but there comes a time when each of us is ready to start working for others and not only for the self , ...this begins with family life , ...when we are born everything is for the self we are exploring , studying growing , then we learn to give and to share , ..we enter family life .as we do so we take on responcibility for others , at first it is our family members , then realising what rsponcibility is we begin to be conscious of the greater comunity , when we feel strong enough we will offer wider support to the comunity , and even to those beyond our imidiate comunity . it is all a process we do not need to get stuck in any one place awareness needs to continualy develop , continualy grow . if it does not then we are not human we are simply folowing our animal instincts .

so to my mind worshiping in the superficial manner is fine it is part of the process , it is just that we dont need to get stuck there we need to grow , we need to do that and more

I realy liked what he says about worshiping a static god in the temple , ...this is very comfortable , .... but living and working with god on a daily basis , ...yes in life ''he kicks '' ...and yes this is good for us it is not so comfortable but it is what makes us grow .

I stated my problem, hearing. Not yet got the ear plug.

Aup,

Were you able to fix the audio and by any chance have another opportunity to listen to the video ? If not, I highly recommend reading JMD's post and Ratiben's post (quoted above). In summary, the speaker is discussing what I would describe as getting in touch with tangible realities, so to speak. For example, helping and assisting fellow humans in their daily suffering ... this is what he means by serving the "human god". I understand how this can be construed for humanism, but it goes much deeper than that. A correlation was offered in the question asked initially in the video; paraphrasing that question, it went along the lines of why, for example, do we spend lots of money on developing extravagant mandir-s but few blocks down the road, and often a few feet down, we see mass poverty, crime, inequality, etc.. If a majority of concentration is put upon the correctness of everything at superficial levels, we risk ourselves by perhaps forgetting the realities of why we do things in their Dharmic context. If the metaphysical engagements don't bear fruit, place the greater emphasis on helping fellow people around oneself, in one's community. This, in essence, is very much inline with the Liberality sUkta found in the Rgveda. The pramANa indirectly offered by the speaker exists shrautically.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think a solution, if one is at hand, could be for temples to make it public that 50% (or some figure) of their collected funds go to charity. I could never go for not building temple, because temples uplift the individual, and often that psychological upliftment is the very reason they can then be charitable. So you need happy contented people.

 

[Sb1995]

Meh, majority of India is a filthy garbage dirty country. So corrupt and poor children are starving to death daily. It's the Indian's culture. We don't care for our country. We don't throw things in the garbage, we **** and poo in the streets. We litter etc and ruin the country

 

[Aupmanyav]

''Too much humanism'' ??? ......how can one have too much humanism ? well at least whilst we are here on this earth planet !

Yes, Ratikala, Peace, Human Rights, Freedom of belief, Democracy, Free Market, Carbon emmissions, Environment. There are many ways Western nations and Christian missionaries confuse the issues to their advantage. If we were to kneel before them, food items will be four times more costly. That is why I am not sold on 'too much of humanism'. It is OK for US to spew out the maximum amount of carbon but not for China or India in trying to provide jobs for their unemployed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. why, for example, do we spend lots of money on developing extravagant mandir-s but few blocks down the road, and often a few feet down, we see mass poverty, crime, inequality, etc.

Do we spend a lot on our temples? How many hundreds of thousands of crores. Most of what temples get is controlled by government till now. A large amount of that is spent on education, health, etc. They have even used it to subsidize Haj travel. Have we made anything equivalent to the Mecca Mosque, or the Bahai, Swaminarayan temples, or the Sikh Gurudwaras or various churches all over the world. I hear that parts of the Jagannatha temple regularly fall down. And India is not that poor now. We spend more on travelling outside India that what international tourism brings to us. Hundreds of thousands of Indian students are studying in various countries (and in the process supporting their education). Our 2014-15 budget is likely to be around 566,000 Crore Rupees (USD 95 billion). We can afford to spend some money on temples. Finding faults is easy, that is why I am not impressed by such videos and articles.

Meh, majority of India is a filthy garbage dirty country. So corrupt and poor children are starving to death daily. It's the Indian's culture. We don't care for our country. We don't throw things in the garbage, we **** and poo in the streets. We litter etc and ruin the country

It still is 'MY' country. Do we throw out our mother if she is not good-looking. 'Janani Janmabhoomishcha, swargaadapi gariyasi'. But then, SB, you are young.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji ,

Yes, Ratikala, Peace, Freedom of belief, Democracy, Free Market, Carbon emmissions, Environment. There are many ways Western nations and Christian missionaries confuse the issues to their advantage. If we were to kneel before them, food items will be four times more costly. That is why I am not sold on 'too much of humanism'. It is OK for US to spew out the maximum amount of carbon but not for China or India in trying to provide jobs for their unemployed.

my appologies ... before we go too far on this I think we have a different Idea of Humanism !!!

what you are describing is a corrruption of true humanism and I am as against such corruption as you are , ...no I am not for 'Humanism' as a political movement as I am not for secularism above religion , but simply mean that we behave in a human and tollerant manner treating all with equality regardless of religious affinities , ...

I will have a seperate conversation with you about the creation of jobs , it is an important issue but I dont want to derail this thread ..

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but simply mean that we behave in a human and tolerant manner treating all with equality regardless of religious affinities, ..

If it was just that, I would have been wholly with you, but this is a bad wicked world. We have to be careful.

Speakers, journalists, politicians, are sent on foreign jaunts (US, Switzerland, Taiwan, Korea), they are given scholarships, international awards, wine and liquor at cheaper rates from the Emabassies, or given new furniture at the rates of used, made representatives of news channels, etc. depending on how well they serve their masters.

 

[Sb1995]

Do we spend a lot on our temples? How many hundreds of thousands of crores. Most of what temples get is controlled by government till now. A large amount of that is spent on education, health, etc. They have even used it to subsidize Haj travel. Have we made anything equivalent to the Mecca Mosque, or the Bahai, Swaminarayan temples, or the Sikh Gurudwaras or various churches all over the world. I hear that parts of the Jagannatha temple regularly fall down. And India is not that poor now. We spend more on travelling outside India that what international tourism brings to us. Hundreds of thousands of Indian students are studying in various countries (and in the process supporting their education). Our 2014-15 budget is likely to be around 566,000 Crore Rupees (USD 95 billion). We can afford to spend some money on temples. Finding faults is easy, that is why I am not impressed by such videos and articles.It still is 'MY' country. Do we throw out our mother if she is not good-looking. 'Janani Janmabhoomishcha, swargaadapi gariyasi'. But then, SB, you are young.

But atleast we respect our mother.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

If it was just that, I would have been wholly with you, but this is a bad wicked world. We have to be careful.

agreed it is a bad and wicked world , this is kali yuga , people are weak and easily corrupted , this is somthing we must some how learn to cope with in the most benificial way , even by talking about ideals here on this web site , ...if these words touch one person and make that person think ...'how he works with god in his daily life ? ...how do he takes that worship beyond just his worship in the temple , ...beyond giving money to support the temple ? ....and what if someone has no money to give ? what can he do to make this world a better place ?....

Speakers, journalists, politicians, are sent on foreign jaunts (US, Switzerland, Taiwan, Korea), they are given scholarships, international awards, wine and liquor at cheaper rates from the Emabassies, or given new furniture at the rates of used, made representatives of news channels, etc. depending on how well they serve their masters.

yes , because of their weakness and their inability to understand Dharma this greed and ignorance is spreading and now everything is corrupt even some temple managements comitties , some religious institutions are corrupt and they do not even realise it , but there is a tendancy in this Kali yuga to be self serving , ....

but what can we do ?

what he said in the vidio was to acknowledge our own weaknesses and allthough this world is corrupt and full of weakness it will not do us much good to dwell on it , what we need to do is work on the self , work on our own tendancy to be self serving .

...as Ghandi ji said ..'' be the change you want to see ''

yes we must be carefull , we must be carefull not to blindly follow the ignorance of others .