Views of witchcraft

[Cassiopia]

Then why are opinions sought, if they are only to be contradicted flatly? This isn't a quiz, with prizes, surely?

We have yet to be informed what witchcraft is, in the terms of the OP. If it is nude dancing, how is it distinct from naturism? If it is healing, how is it different from alternative medicine? If it is alleged contact with the dead, how does it differ from spiritualism?

Okay that is a fair point. I am genuinely interested to know what opinions people of various faiths have on the subject. However, in fairness to myself, my answer was a response to your question.

I view witchcraft as the use of knowledge to bring about change. It may be just knowing what herbs to use to cure or ease a headache. It may be, as Shyanekh pointed out, the applied use of psychology, drama and imagination to bring about a desired change. I don't think it is always or even mostly something supernatural, although that can be a part of it.

I took the post about women dancing naked around a fire as a joke, perhaps that was naive of me. Some ritual magic can include that, but most doesn't.

It can indeed be healing, in fact I would guess that is it's most common application. And yes, that might include what you refer to as alternative medicine.
I suppose it can include communion with the dead, but that is pretty rare.

No, to come back to what I said at the beginning, witchcraft is using any knowledge or ability you possess to effect change.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I view witchcraft as the use of knowledge to bring about change.

By that ridiculously wide definition, me posting this reply is considered witchcraft... :sarcastic
Heck, me putting on a pair of pants would be considered witchcraft.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

So Abraham was severely schizoid? Or is there just one claim to Abrahamic faith that compels at least intellectual assent?

Sorry but I don't understand what you're saying or asking but I would like to. Please explain.

So is that not what witchcraft is? A Satanic practice?

Of course not. Though I suppose if you are of one of the Abrahamic faiths, you are supposed to believe that all other religions, sometimes including the Abrahamic faiths not your own, as being Satan inspired and any ritual aspect of those religions are to be considered witchcraft, but only the Fundamentalists go that far these days.

 

[Villager]

Okay that is a fair point. I am genuinely interested to know what opinions people of various faiths have on the subject. However, in fairness to myself, my answer was a response to your question.

Not one addressed to you, though.

I view witchcraft as the use of knowledge to bring about change.

Like science and engineering.

I don't think it is always or even mostly something supernatural, although that can be a part of it.

But if one questions why religious persons object to witchcraft, one wonders why they bother, if that is true.

I took the post about women dancing naked around a fire as a joke, perhaps that was naive of me. Some ritual magic can include that, but most doesn't.

What is ritual magic?

'Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.'

There's the 'classical' view of witchcraft (Macbeth), no doubt adorned for dramatic effect, but not without some basis, surely.

It can indeed be healing, in fact I would guess that is it's most common application. And yes, that might include what you refer to as alternative medicine.

There has been for some decades now a movement within alternative medicine to oppose religion, to try to supplant it. Maybe that's the connexion?

No, to come back to what I said at the beginning, witchcraft is using any knowledge or ability you possess to effect change.

Like all human projects. I really don't see any supporting architecture in this definition. This word seems less like a descriptor than a label, applied either for provocative reasons, or to give a sense of protection from theism of some description.

 

[Erebus]

By that ridiculously wide definition, me posting this reply is considered witchcraft... :sarcastic
Heck, me putting on a pair of pants would be considered witchcraft.

Crowley would agree with you there. Saying that I'm not a massive fan of Crowley

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I am sure this must have been discussed here before, but I'm new here and I haven't seen any recent discussion of this topic. From your personal and religious standpoint, how do you view witchcraft?
I know some Christians have "problems" with it, but equally I know quite a few practicing Christian-Witches.
I am not quite sure how witchcraft is viewed by other religions these days.

Obviously since many (but not all) Pagans practice witchcraft in some form our views are usually less critical than some other religious views may be. But even within Paganism there is a lot of debate about the morals and ethics involved in using witchcraft and there is a wide diversity of opinions.

Depends on the way they practice. I appreciate those who can accept that it doesn't "have to be done this way" or make it their own.

I also enjoy when it's not bound in an antagonistic way to another group.

 

[Cassiopia]

Originally Posted by Cassiopia
I view witchcraft as the use of knowledge to bring about change.

By that ridiculously wide definition, me posting this reply is considered witchcraft... :sarcastic
Heck, me putting on a pair of pants would be considered witchcraft.

How would you define it then? Or how would you prefer me to define it?
If I defined it as a purely supernatural thing I am fairly sure you would just sneer.
Witchcraft is a body of knowledge that has been passed down over hundreds of years. Some of it is supernatural. Some of it isn't. Some of it would have been viewed as supernatural in times past but now could correctly be explained as correct use of chemicals, plants and herbs and perhaps psychology in times before such knowledge was more widely known and became the province of medicine.
I have to stand by the definition I gave, wide as it is, because witchcraft does indeed cover a wide field of activity.
And yes, your posting a reply is indeed witchcraft in the sense that you are causing something to happen which is not easy to explain. You know it works and so do I, however I can't claim enough knowledge to understand let alone explain every aspect of the technology involved in transferring a thought in your mind to your own computer and then transmitting it to countless computers and other devices around the world.

The only way I can be more specific in my own definition is to say the knowledge used to affect change in witchcraft is generally knowledge contained within particular cultures, religions and spiritual belief systems.

What is ritual magic?

'Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.'

There's the 'classical' view of witchcraft (Macbeth), no doubt adorned for dramatic effect, but not without some basis, surely.

True. The use of chants and poetic language is used in some ritual magic along with infusions of "natural" ingredients. Seldom anything as dramatic as "eye of newt" though.

There has been for some decades now a movement within alternative medicine to oppose religion, to try to supplant it. Maybe that's the connexion?

Honestly, I haven't come across any practitioners of alternative medicine who oppose religion or are trying to supplant it. I am not saying there aren't any like that but I don't think they are common or a movement.

 

[jarofthoughts]

How would you define it then?

I don't believe in witchcraft, so I wouldn't.

Or how would you prefer me to define it?

Considering that you're the one making the claim, I'll leave that up to you.

If I defined it as a purely supernatural thing I am fairly sure you would just sneer.

Well, for that to pass review, you would first have to evidentially establish that there even is such a thing as the supernatural.

Witchcraft is a body of knowledge that has been passed down over hundreds of years.

Not sure I would call it 'knowledge'.
'Body of superstitions' has more of a ring to it though.

Some of it is supernatural. Some of it isn't. Some of it would have been viewed as supernatural in times past but now could correctly be explained as correct use of chemicals, plants and herbs and perhaps psychology in times before such knowledge was more widely known and became the province of medicine.

To quote Tim Minchin: "Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be...not magic".

I have to stand by the definition I gave, wide as it is, because witchcraft does indeed cover a wide field of activity.

So we agree that me taking on my pants is witchcraft?
Or would you like to explain why it is not?

And yes, your posting a reply is indeed witchcraft in the sense that you are causing something to happen which is not easy to explain.

So now your definition of witchcraft is something that is difficult to explain, effectively meaning that witchcraft is the methodology of ignorance? :areyoucra

The only way I can be more specific in my own definition is to say the knowledge used to affect change in witchcraft is generally knowledge contained within particular cultures, religions and spiritual belief systems.

Which, again, includes just about everything, so according to you, everything is witchcraft?
Don't see us making much headway here...

 

[Villager]

H

Honestly, I haven't come across any practitioners of alternative medicine who oppose religion or are trying to supplant it.

I have, several times. I'd say that the general ethos of alternative medicine is against religion, though religion is not necessarily against alternative medicine (against, only when it doesn't work, or is damaging). In fact, the perception that natural remedies are God's remedies may be what stimulates alternative practitioners into pursuing what they consider a sort of usurpation of divine power.

Perhaps 'witches' desire a sort of usurpation of divine power?

 

[Cassiopia]

Well, for that to pass review, you would first have to evidentially establish that there even is such a thing as the supernatural.

No I wouldn't. I am not claiming to prove or justify witchcraft by the scientific method.

Not sure I would call it 'knowledge'.
'Body of superstitions' has more of a ring to it though.

Whatever floats your boat.

To quote Tim Minchin: "Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be...not magic".

And as I have said I have no problem if every single aspect of witchcraft one day gets a scientific explanation. I think that would be good. In the meantime my interest in it is not based on the fact that it is a mystery, it is based on the fact that for me and a good many others, it works.

So we agree that me taking on my pants is witchcraft?
Or would you like to explain why it is not?

Possibly.
No.

So now your definition of witchcraft is something that is difficult to explain, effectively meaning that witchcraft is the methodology of ignorance?

No that is not my intended meaning. I am sure there will be people who agree with you though. And there will be some who don't.
I am not intending to prove all you believe is wrong or to treat you as if you are mentally impaired because you don't agree with me.

Don't see us making much headway here...

I agree.
It's not going to stop me sleeping at night though.

 

[jarofthoughts]

No I wouldn't. I am not claiming to prove or justify witchcraft by the scientific method.

Which you would have to do to make me agree that witchcraft is real.

Whatever floats your boat.

If I owned a boat I imagine it would float due to the lower average density as compared to the amount of water it displaces.

And as I have said I have no problem if every single aspect of witchcraft one day gets a scientific explanation. I think that would be good. In the meantime my interest in it is not based on the fact that it is a mystery, it is based on the fact that for me and a good many others, it works.

I'm pretty sure we can explain each and every effect of what you think of as witchcraft with science instead.
Which makes me wonder, why call it witchcraft in the first place if not to appear overly mysterious and mystical?

No that is not my intended meaning. I am sure there will be people who agree with you though. And there will be some who don't.

And I'm confident that the last category is likely to be filled with people who want to appear overly mysterious and mystical, and/or, who can't be bothered to open a science textbook to find out how stuff works.

I am not intending to prove all you believe is wrong or to treat you as if you are mentally impaired because you don't agree with me.

That would be rather silly of you since science is backing me up on this.

I agree.
It's not going to stop me sleeping at night though.

Oh hells no!
A good night's sleep is important.
I wouldn't want to ruin that for you.

 

[Cassiopia]

I have, several times. I'd say that the general ethos of alternative medicine is against religion, though religion is not necessarily against alternative medicine (against, only when it doesn't work, or is damaging). In fact, the perception that natural remedies are God's remedies may be what stimulates alternative practitioners into pursuing what they consider a sort of usurpation of divine power.

Perhaps 'witches' desire a sort of usurpation of divine power?

Not at all. I am genuinely surprised that you have this opinion. I have found in general that witches are very open to and supportive of alternative medicine and the practitioners of alternative medicine whom I have met seem seem open minded about witchcraft, religion and spiritual ideas as a whole since they are often being attacked themselves by people in the mainstream of medicine and religion.

 

[Villager]

I have found in general that witches are very open to and supportive of alternative medicine

Just as would be expected, if my pov is correct.

and the practitioners of alternative medicine whom I have met seem seem open minded about witchcraft, religion and spiritual ideas as a whole since they are often being attacked themselves by people in the mainstream of medicine and religion.

That's patently untrue. Many conventional medics are also alternative practitioners, and of course conventional medicine does not criticise except on medical grounds (and quite often with justification). That point is irrelevant.

Most religious people are not even very conscious of alternative medicine, and those who are aware of it, are as likely to be users of alternative medicine as anyone else. There are strong views, for as well as against, particular forms of treatment, rather than the whole field. That's just the same as the reaction of the non-religious!

There is no doubt to anyone who has made a study of the subject that alternative medicine has been propagated by some opposed to religion for a very long time, particularly where remedies are said to affect mood and even character, supposedly making unnecessary the need for religion to do so. Practitioners of alternative medicine who take this view may not wish to admit it in public, for sensible commercial reasons, but, for those who have had dealings with them in this context, they are certainly extremely determined in their opposition. Perhaps in supernatural way.

 

[Cassiopia]

the practitioners of alternative medicine whom I have met seem seem open minded about witchcraft, religion and spiritual ideas as a whole since they are often being attacked themselves by people in the mainstream of medicine and religion.

That's patently untrue.

Please don't call me a liar.
As for the rest of your post, all I can say is your experience and opinions are very different to mine.

 

[Villager]

Please don't call me a liar.

I certainly won't.

Please don't allege that I have called you a liar. You may well be quite unaware that many conventional medics are also qualified alternative practitioners, as is easily discovered. I think it would be highly dishonest to attempt to disguise that fact, though.

As for the rest of your post, all I can say is your experience and opinions are very different to mine.

Indeed. In a subject like this one, it's just about all that anyone can say.

 

[Erebus]

Cauldron blazing in the fire,
Lapping flames grow ever higher,
Tongue of toad and wing of bat,
Mixed within this bubbling vat,
Raven's claw and serpent's scale,
Dragon's blood and scorpion's tail,
A plague of nightmares I invoke,
To rise up from the ash and smoke,
Spider's web and eye of newt,
Viper's venom and mandrake root,
Hearken ye to my commands,
Come forth to haunt these withered lands,
Unleashed from depths of blackest night,
Slither, crawl and take to flight,
And in the darkest midnight hour,
All gather round the witch's tower.

Nox Arcana - Conjuration

Just thought I'd share a little ditty

More seriously though, who wouldn't want to be a witch? I don't understand some people's opposition to imagination.

 

[Villager]

Cauldron blazing in the fire,
Lapping flames grow ever higher,
Tongue of toad and wing of bat,
Mixed within this bubbling vat,
Raven's claw and serpent's scale,
Dragon's blood and scorpion's tail,
A plague of nightmares I invoke,
To rise up from the ash and smoke,
Spider's web and eye of newt,
Viper's venom and mandrake root,
Hearken ye to my commands,
Come forth to haunt these withered lands,
Unleashed from depths of blackest night,
Slither, crawl and take to flight,
And in the darkest midnight hour,
All gather round the witch's tower.

Nox Arcana - Conjuration

Just thought I'd share a little ditty

Great stuff, great play.

 

[Rakhel]

So Abraham was severely schizoid? Or is there just one claim to Abrahamic faith that compels at least intellectual assent?

So is that not what witchcraft is? A Satanic practice?

what is with you and this Abrahamic schizophrenia? and what does it have to do with this particular thread?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I am sure this must have been discussed here before, but I'm new here and I haven't seen any recent discussion of this topic. From your personal and religious standpoint, how do you view witchcraft?
I know some Christians have "problems" with it, but equally I know quite a few practicing Christian-Witches.
I am not quite sure how witchcraft is viewed by other religions these days.

Obviously since many (but not all) Pagans practice witchcraft in some form our views are usually less critical than some other religious views may be. But even within Paganism there is a lot of debate about the morals and ethics involved in using witchcraft and there is a wide diversity of opinions.

I'm ok with it.

I use to be pagan myself (chaote) and most of the witches/wiccans i know have been the nicest people i've ever met. I love pagan girls and have dated a number of them. I do however struggle to relate to the uber fluffy types, their happy happy joy joy attitude grates on my nerves.

 

[fantome profane]

And to be honest, I can be quoted as having said many times, that technically speaking, a Christian praying for you to be saved after you've expressed no interest is essentially black magick

I have never thought of it in exactly those terms, very interesting way to put it. But I have said myself that there is no significant moral or ethical difference between casting spells and saying prayers. It all depends on what you are praying for, or casting spells for. And I also feel that both approaches will be equally “effective”.