jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
Look again.
Sorry.
Couldn't find any evidence to support this.
Mind pointing it out since you apparently know where it is?
You must be unique among literati.
Surely not.
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Look again.
You must be unique among literati.
The same as with any other form of magic: at best it is a novel method of meditation, at worst it is a waste of time. But in either case, who am I to tell people what to do with their time. As long as they don't bother anyone else with it I don't really care and I most certainly wouldn't seek out those who are into to it to "deconvert" them.
However, since this tread is about witchcraft, I thought I'd put in my two cents on the matter.
Sure. I just find it (as I said) amusing that people talk about concepts like this as if it is already decided that they are real and actually have meaning.
Seems a bit like putting the horse before the carriage to me. :sarcastic
The same goes for any number of concepts (crystal healing, angels, souls, auras, homoeopathy, gods, etc...) though, so I'm not out to 'get' practitioners of witchcraft. Witchcraft is just one of the many things I find nonsensical.
Oh, I'm not saying that the BELIEF in witchcraft isn't real and has a real effect on people's lives. It most certainly does. But just because I acknowledge that something (religion and the belief in gods is a very good example of this) has had a huge impact on our history and culture, that doesn't mean that whatever they believe(d) in is in any shape or form real.
Hope that clarified my stance on the matter.
I think this is exactly right, and more I think it applies to many aspects of religion that are not normally classified as magic. Prayers, rituals, ceremonies, sermons, masses, chants, hymns, even the art and architecture of religious buildings, all having real and powerful psychological impact.It's my view that as an absolute minimum we can explain magic through psychology. Ignoring the possibility that there is more to it than this, magic is essentially the use of ideas, archetypes, superstitions and folklore in order to affect yourself and/or others for better or worse. In this sense it most certainly exists and can be very powerful.
Hi, sorry it took me a while to reply, dissertation work comes before RF unfortunately
I've trimmed your post down, not to try and ignore some of the points you've made (I'm quite impressed actually, you seem to have covered this topic more than many people) but to pick up on a few things I found interesting.
Firstly I'm a pragmatist rather than an empiricist and I feel many of the areas in which we depart in our opinions comes down to this difference in world-view. As such, to me it doesn't make sense to describe something as having an effect on people on the one hand and calling it nonsense or unreal on the other. It's my view that as an absolute minimum we can explain magic through psychology. Ignoring the possibility that there is more to it than this, magic is essentially the use of ideas, archetypes, superstitions and folklore in order to affect yourself and/or others for better or worse. In this sense it most certainly exists and can be very powerful.
Now, it's my opinion that anything beyond this use of placebo/nocebo effect is down to the individual practitioner to decide upon. I think most practitioners follow this ethic which is probably why (as has been mentioned) witches rarely proselytise. If it were discovered that there is a transfer of energy or some invisible lifeform causing magic to take effect I would agree with you that this would warrant empirical investigation.
Until that stage though I feel that magic is a tool for individual use. Considering that we can understand not only why it works psychologically, but also that in order for it to work well as a placebo a practitioner is well advised to inject mystery, fantasy and even danger into their rituals I find it quite unfair to simply call it nonsense.
Anyway, thankyou for clarifying your position, like I say I enjoy your posts and I was a little disappointed to see the post I replied to. I see now that I may have taken it the wrong way
Thanks. I am new here but I must admit that I have been a bit disappointed with some of the responses in this thread. As the term "Religious Education" forms part of the name of this site I was hoping that the responses might have been more along the lines of genuine interest rather than dominated by the same predictable prejudices and grandstanding I see in other places all too often.
me too that is why I read through it ,I was actually hoping to learn something about how witchcraft is viewed and practiced in different religions.
can we re start with some comparisons ?I am not exactly shocked that some atheists sneer at anything vaguely religious or that some Christians view witchcraft as something bad or satanic; but I had hoped we would get beyond that here.
I hope you don't mind that I reply to your post collectively.
I agree that our differing approaches to this (and probably other) topics may well be the reason for our differing opinions on the matter. As an empiricist I naturally feel that everything should be presented as accurately as possible to avoid misunderstanding and to avoid muddling the waters so to speak. Humanity suffer under a great deal of what I would call delusional beliefs, not in any way limited to religion by the way, and I am of the opinion that the more of these we can remove the better. As Carl Sagan might have put it, it is better to see the world for what it really is than through a veil of delusion and wishful thinking. A lot of this naturally comes down to somewhat evolutionary based cognitive shortcomings, such as confirmation bias, but through the use of the scientific method and a strict adherence to its principles we have been able to produce an ever increasing insight into how the world around us work. For me, the postulation of something for which we have no reason to think is real gets in the way of that process. Now, to be fair, witchcraft can hardly be said to be the main transgressor in this respect, but it fits into the same category when people see it as more than a psychologically based placebo/nocebo effect. True, the placebo effect is indeed real, which is why we take it into account when conducting trials of, say, new medical treatments, but that is still all it is. And it would be a far stretch to call that effect magic.
I mentioned earlier that I have known and know a few people claiming to be witches and practitioners of magic, and my general impression is that they use that to seem overly mystic and often attempt to make themselves and the things they say seem much more important than they really are. And for these people, an empiricist like myself is an 'enemy' who comes in and ruins their game by exposing and explaining their magic for what it really is. To me, their approach is basically an attempt to exploit the credulity of people around them, and I find it highly distasteful. Empiricism is a way of making sure that such exploits cannot take place since one would have to base one's assertions on evidence and checkable facts.
As I said earlier, I don't exactly go out of my way to 'hunt' these people down and 'deconvert' them. However, when the question is raised, like in this instance, or when they are fronting their views publicly (like at a party or similar) I am more than happy to rip their fancies of mysticism to shreds, knowing full well the extent of human credulity. As an example of this, I have at times, as a party trick, employed cold reading to make people believe that I am psychic, although I always explain what I have done afterwards and confess that I am, indeed, no psychic. It is however interesting that some of these people have, even after having the techniques explained to them, denied my confession and continued to uphold the notion that I am psychic...
So, in short, if we're talking about a placebo effect, let's call it what it is and stop pretending that it is something that it is not. And if someone publicly proclaims the existence of the supernatural and of magical powers, then I will demand that they back that claim up with empirical evidence. Some people might feel that I am being a terrible curmudgeon for doing that, but the long and the short of it is that there is absolutely no reason to think that magic, or witchcraft for that matter, is real.
However I've also seen magic appear to take effect and find it difficult to explain away as sheer coincidence. Now perhaps I'm entirely mistaken and there really is nothing happening, but as a pragmatist I see no reason not to use it in case it genuinely does work (and for the psychological "mind tricks" I mentioned earlier).
For example, I'm agnostic on a philosophical level (I don't think we can know what exists ultimately) I express my opinions, values and beliefs through theism and yet at the same time I'm perfectly happy to view my beliefs through symbolism, archetypes and placebo. That's a difficult position to convey
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-science (I actually agree with many transhumanist ideas which some would argue is too pro-science and anti-ethics) but I do feel there is some truth in the old cliché "science can't answer everything".
My response to this problem though isn't to replace science with a sacred text and believe that instead, but to supplement scientific discovery with our own experiences, ideas and coping mechanisms on an individual level (the underlined part being really quite important).
Considering this, I don't think it matters hugely if one's own beliefs are ultimately wrong, irrational or illogical, providing they are beneficial.
I am sure this must have been discussed here before, but I'm new here and I haven't seen any recent discussion of this topic. From your personal and religious standpoint, how do you view witchcraft?
I know some Christians have "problems" with it, but equally I know quite a few practicing Christian-Witches.
I am not quite sure how witchcraft is viewed by other religions these days.
Obviously since many (but not all) Pagans practice witchcraft in some form our views are usually less critical than some other religious views may be. But even within Paganism there is a lot of debate about the morals and ethics involved in using witchcraft and there is a wide diversity of opinions.
I am sure this must have been discussed here before, but I'm new here and I haven't seen any recent discussion of this topic. From your personal and religious standpoint, how do you view witchcraft?
I know some Christians have "problems" with it, but equally I know quite a few practicing Christian-Witches.
I am not quite sure how witchcraft is viewed by other religions these days.
Obviously since many (but not all) Pagans practice witchcraft in some form our views are usually less critical than some other religious views may be. But even within Paganism there is a lot of debate about the morals and ethics involved in using witchcraft and there is a wide diversity of opinions.
It looks like this is largely being directed to Christians, so I hope you'll forgive me putting in my two cents.
One of my fields of professional expertise is Jewish magic and mysticism, and I've actually written a bit on the problem of the textual tradition itself having contradictory views of magic.
The various words and practices prohibited in the Torah that are generally translated by very vague and general words meaning "people who practice magic" or "people who divine" are, in actuality, quite specific. The acts that are proscribed are certain methodologies of sorcery and divination, and do not include many of the kinds of magic and divination commonly used in the Ancient Near East, and even in other parts of the Ancient Western World.
Moreover, even those acts which the Torah does seem to explicitly prohibit, a careful reading of the Talmud reveals some interesting teachings by the Rabbis that actually narrow those prohibitions considerably, wherein they explain that actually, the Torah only prohibits certain kinds of divination on Shabbat (the Sabbath day), because they involve prohibited work; but the rest of the week, they are permitted. And many other kinds of magic are practiced by the Rabbis of the Talmud themselves.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with Jews practicing types of magic and divination not forbidden to us. And since the Torah (Written and Oral) applies only to the Jewish People, and not to non-Jews, I see no reason that non-Jews cannot practice any kind of magic they like; although I confess I do not approve of necromancy at all, nor I am particularly supportive of the summoning of demons.
Now, who do you think really knows better? The statements about the occult stemming from a scripture of a religion that has received the acknowledgement of monarchies, statesmen, the legal profession, the medical profession, universities, schools and businesses; or a poster claiming to be an actual witch trying to inform you what witchcraft really is, but who could easily be describing something quite different?
Yes indeed some witches use various forms of divination, the best known of which might be tarot, but there are many other forms. I am sure not all people would even regard divination as witchcraft since it is practiced in various forms in many religions.were there any particular areas you were interested in ?
the interesting thing with the tibetans is that it is a more accepted phenomena which is quite interlaced with the buddhist faith , without conflict . divination , the use of the orical , medicine , protector deitys , the list goes on ,
allso I liked draka's comments , post 52 ,
so lets start with a subject , divination , is it used in whitch craft ?
Interesting and whatever moral questions this form of witchcraft might bring up it is further proof of the reality of witchcraft in people's lives.There`s an island Siquijor in the Philippines which is known to many here as the Voodoo island. People go to this island carrying with them pictures, hairs, anything related to the person they want to curse. There`s also in the island known as the herbolaryos who use mantras whatever to counter act the curse. Witchcraft is a business in the island because the Voodoo practitioners get a share from the herbolaryo the token of appreciation for being healed by the curse which the Voodooist himself has made on the gullible person.
The herbolaryo can`t cure the cursed one if the Voodoist don`t give the herbolaryo the antidote.
Very interesting. Of course Kabbala (Qabala--however you want to spell it) is used as a basis for witchcraft in many Pagan traditions and methodology.The various words and practices prohibited in the Torah that are generally translated by very vague and general words meaning "people who practice magic" or "people who divine" are, in actuality, quite specific. The acts that are proscribed are certain methodologies of sorcery and divination, and do not include many of the kinds of magic and divination commonly used in the Ancient Near East, and even in other parts of the Ancient Western World.
Moreover, even those acts which the Torah does seem to explicitly prohibit, a careful reading of the Talmud reveals some interesting teachings by the Rabbis that actually narrow those prohibitions considerably, wherein they explain that actually, the Torah only prohibits certain kinds of divination on Shabbat (the Sabbath day), because they involve prohibited work; but the rest of the week, they are permitted. And many other kinds of magic are practiced by the Rabbis of the Talmud themselves.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with Jews practicing types of magic and divination not forbidden to us. And since the Torah (Written and Oral) applies only to the Jewish People, and not to non-Jews, I see no reason that non-Jews cannot practice any kind of magic they like; although I confess I do not approve of necromancy at all, nor I am particularly supportive of the summoning of demons.
It looks like this is largely being directed to Christians, so I hope you'll forgive me putting in my two cents.
since the Torah (Written and Oral) applies only to the Jewish People, and not to non-Jews
Which well known Christian?^^ Which just goes to show that even one of the most well known Christians used practices associated with witchcraft when it suited him.
Apologies. My mistake. I read it as Paul. My bad.Which well known Christian?
Wrong Saul. The Saul he quoted was King SaulSt Paul. That's who your quoted biblical text is about.