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Violence in Islam?

Do you think Islam is a peaceful religion?

  • Islam is NOT a peaceful religion, but Christianity and Judaism are

    Votes: 2 4.4%
  • Islam is a peaceful religion, but Christianity and Judaism are NOT

    Votes: 2 4.4%
  • All Monotheistic religions are peaceful

    Votes: 18 40.0%
  • At their core NONE of the 3 major Monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) are Peaceful

    Votes: 23 51.1%

  • Total voters
    45

Aamer

Truth Seeker
I love on one hand you guys claim that Saudi Arabia is the most un-Islamic country in the world, then you claim you need to master the pure Arabic language to understand the Quran!! You guys do realize that the SAUDIS are the ones that speak the PURE Arabic language of the Quran right?
In that sense, they understand it and interpret it better than anyone! So say all you want, and lie to yourself all you want for now but sooner or later you will see the truth!

I once was a Muslim, I even worked in Saudi Arabia and lived there for a while. Having been to many Muslim countries, for work and leisure, and having studied the Quran and Islam, I finally decided I had enough. I was not going to lie to myself anymore, at first I lost faith and became an atheist over time, but I would still defend Islam. However, after a while I could no longer understand why I was defending something that I found to be so archaic, so oppressive, and extremely outdated, considering how free and liberated I feel now, and how sad and operassive Islam is at its core, I can no longer just sit back and be forced to respect it, when it deserves none at all and in fact deserves all the criticism in the world!

Saudis do not speak or understand Classic Arabic of the Qurayash tribe (Quranic Arabic). You have your facts wrong. Ask a Saudi and you'll get your answer. As for you finding Islam oppressive, again you're not understanding what Islam is. Tell me what parts of the Quran you find oppressive and unfair. So far your objections have been very generalized and cultural, not Quranic.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
I love on one hand you guys claim that Saudi Arabia is the most un-Islamic country in the world, then you claim you need to master the pure Arabic language to understand the Quran!! You guys do realize that the SAUDIS are the ones that speak the PURE Arabic language of the Quran right?
In that sense, they understand it and interpret it better than anyone! So say all you want, and lie to yourself all you want for now but sooner or later you will see the truth!

LOL that is why Saudis still think music is haram :rolleyes:

Saudis don't speak "PURE Arabic".

Tell me, if Saudi Arabia is the most Islamic country, where monarchy is in Islam! Tell me how allowing American military bases in the land, Islamic! Tell me where nationalism is in Islam!

Tell me how they are Islamic, when the royals drink alcohol. Or go to beach in bikini. :rolleyes:
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Aamer;3301369]Let's not try to sugar coat things. Let's tell it like it is. And let's not talk religions per se, let's talk scriptures. Yes Quran does allow violence BUT ONLY when you are defending yourself, not being allowed to practice Islam or being kicked out of your homes. I love how everyone loves to quote "Kill them where you find them" but they neglect to quote the verses which state the conditions under which this is justified. Let's have an honest look at this situation...

Just would like to add my two cents to this.

Violence is only allowed as per koran when one is not allowed to practice Islam as you have stated. can i ask what is considered "practicing Islam"?
If Islamic practices are against the Law or culture of a Land, where there are Muslim minorities, does this injunction command that Muslims turn to violence?

Second, Kicked out of home is given another example, what exactly does this mean, is it when someone forces you out of your house that you own, or is it when a owner of the house that you are renting ask you to leave, or what??

[2:193] Fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

If they don't fight back, you can't continue fighting. But under what conditions is this violence permissible? Let's look at another important piece of truth...

Can you please provide verse preceding 2:193 so we can understand who is this (in bold above) "THEM, referring to.

[4:89] They hope that you would reject as they rejected, then you would be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and KILL THEM WHERE YOU FIND THEM; and do not take from them any ally or supporter;

[4:90] Except for those who join a people between whom you have a covenant, or those who come to you with reluctance in their chests to fight you or to fight their own people. Had God willed He would have given them strength and they would have fought you. But if they retire from you, and did not fight you, and they offer you peace; then God does not make for you a way against them.

Hmm... It seems like God is saying you can only fight in cases of self defense.

to me 4:89 is stating that "those who reject Islam unless they convert to Islam then KILL THEM WHERE YOU FIND THEM, and in 4:90 it is advised "don't take any allies from those (mentioned in 4:89) who rejected the God of Islam, only from those who become allies of Muslim, or the weak who cant or will not fight.

So this self defense is against those who reject Islam, by mere rejection of Islam, Allah commands that you fight them, how is this self defense when no violence is mentioned being portrayed by those who reject Islam?

[60:8] God does not forbid you from those who have not fought you because of your faith, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

That contradicts 4:89 where mere rejection sparks violence?

which is true??

What??? Muslims are only allowed to fight when defending themselves, being kicked out of their homes or not being allowed to practice their faith? So Quran doesn't allow for violence against "infidels" just for sport? In fact, Muslims must actually be equitable towards non believers who are doing them no harm? Sorry Anti-Islam deceivers, you have been exposed. Read the entire Quran. Understand the context and then make accusations. Quran promotes peace towards all but does command us to defend ourselves if being oppressed. That's not violence. It's justice.

What is considered "Self Defense" in Islam? Is it to defend against Physical violence only or theological differences by those who reject Islam? because in 4:89 it is quite clear that the rejecters are to be killed.


OHM TATH SATH
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Just would like to add my two cents to this.

Violence is only allowed as per koran when one is not allowed to practice Islam as you have stated. can i ask what is considered "practicing Islam"?
If Islamic practices are against the Law or culture of a Land, where there are Muslim minorities, does this injunction command that Muslims turn to violence?

it is mainly worshiping GOD alone . If a community/state decree a law against worshiping ALLAH (swt) and there is only one Muslim in the whole country , s/he must try his/her level best to change this law , even by sacrificing his/her own life . Fighting with evil community is a must for GOD worshiper .

Second, Kicked out of home is given another example, what exactly does this mean, is it when someone forces you out of your house that you own, or is it when a owner of the house that you are renting ask you to leave, or what??

It is mainly about evicting somebody from his/her motherland or the homestead s/he owns .


Can you please provide verse preceding 2:193 so we can understand who is this (in bold above) "THEM, referring to.

[002:190] Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.

[002:191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
[002:192] But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[002:193] And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

to me 4:89 is stating that "those who reject Islam unless they convert to Islam then KILL THEM WHERE YOU FIND THEM, and in 4:90 it is advised "don't take any allies from those (mentioned in 4:89) who rejected the God of Islam, only from those who become allies of Muslim, or the weak who cant or will not fight.

So this self defense is against those who reject Islam, by mere rejection of Islam, Allah commands that you fight them, how is this self defense when no violence is mentioned being portrayed by those who reject Islam?



That contradicts 4:89 where mere rejection sparks violence?

which is true??



What is considered "Self Defense" in Islam? Is it to defend against Physical violence only or theological differences by those who reject Islam? because in 4:89 it is quite clear that the rejecters are to be killed.


OHM TATH SATH

Your observation from verse 4:89 is not correct . Read the verse from its original language :

[FONT=&quot] ودوا لو تكفرون كما كفروا فتكونون سواء فلا تتخذوا منهم اولياء حتى يهاجروا في سبيل الله فان تولوا فخذوهم واقتلوهم حيث وجدتموهم ولاتتخذوا منهم وليا ولانصيرا[/FONT]

You overlook the red lighted word 'Tawalla' , which is the main reason for this fight . Most of translators translate it wisely :

[004:089] They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
Dr. Munir Munshey

[004:089] The hypocrites wish that you would reject faith just like they have. Then, you will (descend down to their level and) be equal to them. Therefore, do not choose them as friends unless they (emigrate and) leave their homes in the path of Allah. If they revert (to open hostility), then seize and slay them wherever you see them. Do not take them as friends or protectors, nor as helpers,
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Sher Ali:[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[004:089] They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of ALLAH. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them;
Shakir:
[004:089] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Pickthall:
[004:089] They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
Khalifa:
[004:089] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

Hence , this fighting is incurred because of the hostile activities and/or harmful position of the disbelievers against the believers .

This fact is more confirmed from the proceeding verses :

[004:090] Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).


[004:091] Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.

Hopefully , it clears the smoke .
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sickening breaking news in the world of religious violence....
News from The Associated Press

POTISKUM, Nigeria (AP) -- Islamic militants attacked a boarding school before dawn Saturday, dousing a dormitory in fuel and lighting it ablaze as students slept, survivors said. At least 30 people were killed in the deadliest attack yet on schools in Nigeria's embattled northeast.
Authorities blamed the violence on Boko Haram, a radical group whose name means "Western education is sacrilege." The militants have been behind a series of recent attacks on schools in the region, including one in which gunmen opened fire on children taking exams in a classroom.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I remember reading they also attack mosques and madressas. They are not islamic. Just a group of Nigerians who don't want an education.
Yes, I wouldn't use them to criticize Islam, since they fail to observe the most important tenets.
 

crocusj

Active Member
Well when people fight over petty things like a football match... :(
I don't fight over football matches (though they are not petty!!!). People fighting do not make a violent species. Most people do not fight. Most people do not want to fight. Most people when they do fight, hide.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Everything is avoidable if you steer away from it.
Even if you don't want to, sometimes you gotta.

If it is necessary how can it be evil?
Should we have rolled over for the Nazis, or communists?
Sometimes you have no choice.
It's evil because there is a loss of life, and collateral damage is inevitable.
Doesn't mean it's a good thing. Doesn't change the fact war is evil.

Are we? Nobody is fighting in my street as I type. Nobody is fighting in my scheme.
There's people fighting somewhere in the world. There was a scuffle not far away long ago.

Just because nobody you know is fighting right now does not mean there is no fighting going on. :rolleyes:

How, exactly, are you defining violent species?
We fight. Easily.

We aren't the same as bonobos.

People fight over anything. We're quick to anger. War is in our nature.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
I voted that all Monotheistic religions are peaceful which I personally feel that the beliefs and teachings of all Monotheistic religions generally are peaceful. In my opinion, there are some violent elements in them but for the most part, the teachings and beliefs of all Monotheistic religions are peaceful in my opinion.

As for violence in Islam, it seems that as regards terrorist attacks committed by Muslim groups, this sort of violence is largely from the more extreme Islamic groups. That said, I really don't know anything about what those groups teach so I have no idea whether they get their justification from teachings found in the Quran or whatever. But anyway, that's my opinion.
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
I don't fight over football matches (though they are not petty!!!). People fighting do not make a violent species. Most people do not fight. Most people do not want to fight. Most people when they do fight, hide.

You are not a real scot. :p Imposter! Just joking but I personally find it ridiculous that humans find the stupidest reasons to fight. Also, I'm a peaceful person but if I had to protect something/someone precious to me then I would fight.

I realised I never answered. I don't find Islam itself violent, yes there is justified war but there's many, MANY guidelines. People who never bother reading about those immediately jump to the conclusion that Muslims are violent.

People who twist the faith are the violent ones.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Any system of belief that tells you that you are the one true way and everyone is is wrong or evil sets up a scenario in which people will take the message in a way to justify violence. Ideas in and of themselves are not violent. But that way of thinking is akin to stating that its not the racism that is wrong but the racists.

I think any organized religion is guilty of setting up scenarios in which it can be easily abused or used to justify violence. I stated all monotheistic religions are violent and I base my case solely on historical evidence.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Any system of belief that tells you that you are the one true way and everyone is is wrong or evil sets up a scenario in which people will take the message in a way to justify violence. Ideas in and of themselves are not violent. But that way of thinking is akin to stating that its not the racism that is wrong but the racists.

I think any organized religion is guilty of setting up scenarios in which it can be easily abused or used to justify violence. I stated all monotheistic religions are violent and I base my case solely on historical evidence.

One need not refer to history. Current events show that the normal mode of political discourse in muslim-majority societies is mob violence.

What counts is what people do, not what is in the so-called holy books hardly any of them actually read.
 
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