Virgin Birth or Virgin of Virginity Birth Occurrence

[Deeje]

In regards to Virgin Birth or Virgin of Virginity Birth Occurrence:

1. Does any contradict the law?

What law in particular? The young woman Mary was confused by the Gabriel's announcement of her pregnancy because she had never had relations with a man, but since this was God's doing, she humbly accepted the assignment as a great privilege.

Joseph was having none of that because he knew that pregnancy doesn't happen unless the woman has been unfaithful. The law stated that those guilty of sexual misconduct could be put to death. They were betrothed, but not yet married so he decided to divorce her secretly to preserve her dignity. It took God's intervention with a dream to convince him that this was God's doing and that Mary should be taken in marriage. He did not have relations with Mary until after the birth of Jesus. (Matthew 1:24-25)

2. Did any occur in OT?

Virgin births? None are mentioned....none were necessary.
It was necessary for Jesus to be born as a human child to atone for Adam's sin, but he he could not be born as a sinful son of Adam...he had to be a sinless son of God. Only Jehovah could transfer the life of his son in heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin to provide the ransom demanded. (Matthew 20:28)
Jesus had both the religious credentials as well as the physical ones to claim to be the Messiah. His life course showed that he had both.....and his miraculous powers proved that he also had God's spirit.

3. Did King Ahaz witness any Virgin Birth or Virgin of Virginity Birth as a sign?

No, the prophecy of Isaiah 7:11 may have had a first fulfillment in the case of the prophet Isaiah himself, through his having a child by a young woman or maiden. The birth of this child named Immanuel would, of course, not be a virgin birth. The reasonableness of this is seen when we consider that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 concerning the birth of 'Immanuel' by a maiden was to be a sign for the benefit of King Ahaz to whom the prophet Isaiah was then speaking. The virgin birth of a child seven hundred years later could hardly be a sign to King Ahaz during his lifetime.

Isaiah said under inspiration: “Behold, I and the children whom Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in Mount Zion.” (Isaiah 8:18, ASV) So this child 'Immanuel' back there, through his peculiar birth and meaning of his name would be a wonderful sign of something to occur future. So Isaiah 7:14 would have a major, complete fulfillment after Isaiah’s day and at God’s own appointed time.

The Christian scriptures tell us that these things were fulfilled with Mary and the son she produced through holy spirit.

 

[Iymus]

Son of Man has Adam parents being male and female.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

What law in particular?

1. law of creation concerning child of man or man child.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

2. law according to the flesh and seed of Abraham.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Joseph was having none of that because he knew that pregnancy doesn't happen unless the woman has been unfaithful.

3. or perhaps Joseph did not honor her father and mother when it comes to marriage customs and tokens of virginity; therefore being a just man, planned to divorce her secretly instead of making her a publick example according to the law or customs.

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

They were betrothed, but not yet married

4. Perhaps you mean married as in wedding ceremony; however being legally pledge and consummation of the flesh seems to be marriage; even if without wedding ceremony.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

He did not have relations with Mary until after the birth of Jesus. (Matthew 1:24-25)

5. or perhaps after Mary went from legally pledged to wife status "with wife status being consummation of flesh" Joseph did not have relations with his wife until after the the birth of Christ.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

6. Conceived of Holy Ghost and also the seed of the House and Lineage of David out of Bethlehem

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Luk 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

7. First 16 verses of Matthew Chapter 1 describes the book of the generation of Christ which is of Joseph

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

 

[pearl]

Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Ever ask yourself why 14 in this artificial genealogy? The spans of time covered are not so neatly arranged by God so neatly that exactly 14 biological generations separated such moments in salvation history as the call of Abraham. the accession of David, the Babylonian Exile, and the coming of the Messiah. The span of time covered by the three section of the genealogy are too great to have contained only 14 generations each, since some 750 years separated Abraham from David, some 400 years separated David from the Babylonian Exile, and some 600 years separated the Babylonian Exile from Jesus' birth.

 

[amatuerscholar]

Son of Man has Adam parents being male and female.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

You're taking things out of context here. The idea of the Son of Man has nothing to do with Adam or Adam's parents (which he had no parents according to Genesis) being male and female. As for 1 Corinthians, it's talking about the resurrection. So not really relevant.

1. law of creation concerning child of man or man child.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

2. law according to the flesh and seed of Abraham.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

You're not quoting laws here. In Matthew, Jesus is simply saying that he is here to fulfill the Law, or literally, follow the Law. It has nothing to do with birth. In Galatians, Paul is simply saying that Jesus was born a Jew. That is what being born under the law means; that they are born as a Jew. Revelations doesn't talk about the law at all.

With the idea of the seed of Abraham, again, not a law. Romans is just saying that Jesus was of the lineage of David. There is no law there. Hebrews is really saying the same thing, that Jesus is of the lineage of Abraham. There is no talk about a law here. You need to read the verses in context, and really from a better translation than the KJV.

3. or perhaps Joseph did not honor her father and mother when it comes to marriage customs and tokens of virginity; therefore being a just man, planned to divorce her secretly instead of making her a publick example according to the law or customs.

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

This has nothing to do with Mary's mother and father. The whole thing about making her a public example, and not wanting to do with that, is preserving her dignity.

5. or perhaps after Mary went from legally pledged to wife status "with wife status being consummation of flesh" Joseph did not have relations with his wife until after the the birth of Christ.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

6. Conceived of Holy Ghost and also the seed of the House and Lineage of David out of Bethlehem

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Luk 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

7. First 16 verses of Matthew Chapter 1 describes the book of the generation of Christ which is of Joseph

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Matthew and John are not the same Gospel, and you can't combine them. They are saying different things. Matthew has a virgin birth, where it is clear that Mary and Joseph never consummate their marriage until after the birth of Jesus. John doesn't have a virgin birth story at all, and seems to be unaware of it. Luke does have a virgin birth story, but it's not the same as Matthew's. To combine them all means you have to ignore what they are actually saying. That is the problem with your responses here.

There is also the problem that you're taking verses out of context. Doing such means that you're ignoring what the verses are actually saying. It's not a good way to tackle Biblical discussions.

 

[Iymus]

You're taking things out of context here.

will clarify.

it takes seed or sperma which is of the male; and the womb which is of the female to make a child.

Woman's seed is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh; because sperm is bone of the male's bone and flesh of the male's flesh.

When you combine you get the full context.

For example

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

and

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Matthew account emphasizes Love while Mark's account emphasizes Understanding & Love.

Matthew and John are not the same Gospel, and you can't combine them. They are saying different things

They compliment each other and emphasize certain aspects more than the other.

In Matthew, Jesus is simply saying that he is here to fulfill the Law, or literally, follow the Law. It has nothing to do with birth.

encompasses Isaiah 7:14 which is prophecy and of the law and the prophets.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

child came under all aspects of the law and of prophecy .

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 

[amatuerscholar]

will clarify.

it takes seed or sperma which is of the male; and the womb which is of the female to make a child.

Woman's seed is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh; because sperm is bone of the male's bone and flesh of the male's flesh.

When you combine you get the full context.

For example

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

and

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Matthew account emphasizes Love while Mark's account emphasizes Understanding & Love.

I understand how a child is born. But what you're saying isn't scientific nor Biblical. The verses you're quoting have nothing to do with birth. It has to do with a summary of the Jewish Law. He's quoting from the Torah, and really is coming to a similar conclusion that many Jewish teachers did.

They compliment each other and emphasize certain aspects more than the other.

They contradict each other and are looking at Jesus from different perspectives.

encompasses Isaiah 7:14 which is prophecy and of the law and the prophets.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

child came under all aspects of the law and of prophecy .

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Not at all. Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with the Law. Matthew is using Isaiah as a source, but he's also adding his own interpretation, which in turn changes what Isaiah actually meant.

 

[Iymus]

Ever ask yourself why 14 in this artificial genealogy? The spans of time covered are not so neatly arranged by God so neatly that exactly 14 biological generations separated such moments in salvation history as the call of Abraham. the accession of David, the Babylonian Exile, and the coming of the Messiah. The span of time covered by the three section of the genealogy are too great to have contained only 14 generations each, since some 750 years separated Abraham from David, some 400 years separated David from the Babylonian Exile, and some 600 years separated the Babylonian Exile from Jesus' birth.

If the first 17 verses in Matthew Chapter 1 is artificial genealogy then i am learning something new. If that is the case then that should even seemingly discredit the whole new testament.

Messiah is predicated on him being of the House and Lineage of David.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

1Ki 1:28 Then king David answered and said, Call me Bathsheba. And she came into the king's presence, and stood before the king.
1Ki 1:29 And the king sware, and said, As the LORD liveth, that hath redeemed my soul out of all distress,
1Ki 1:30 Even as I sware unto thee by the LORD God of Israel, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne in my stead; even so will I certainly do this day.

Luk 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David

 

[Iymus]

I understand how a child is born. But what you're saying isn't scientific nor Biblical.

seed or sperma and womb bringing forth child is not scientific or biblical?
we my have to agree to disagree on this one.

They contradict each other and are looking at Jesus from different perspectives.

agree to disagree on this one also.

if they contradict or oppose each other then either one or both should be false.

Not at all. Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with the Law.

it should have to do of the law and the prophets. prophecy is as law because it is valid and meant to come to pass along with originate from the Most High.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Matthew is using Isaiah as a source, but he's also adding his own interpretation, which in turn changes what Isaiah actually meant.

or perhaps it seems that way but in actuality Matthew has a deep understanding of Deuteronomy Chapter 22 concerning marriage and marriage customs.

 

[amatuerscholar]

seed or sperma and womb bringing forth child is not scientific or biblical?
we my have to agree to disagree on this one.

Context is king. The claim that Women's seed is... is neither.

agree to disagree on this one also.

if they contradict or oppose each other then either one or both should be false.

Matthew and John place the date of crucifixion on different days. Matthew has it after Passover, John has it on Passover. John doesn't have a Passover meal, while Matthew does. That doesn't mean either one is wrong. It means they are working towards different theological arguments.

it should have to do of the law and the prophets. prophecy is as law because it is valid and meant to come to pass along with originate from the Most High.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Law and prophets are two different things. The Law is the Torah. It isn't the work of the prophets, which are separated.

or perhaps it seems that way but in actuality Matthew has a deep understanding of Deuteronomy Chapter 22 concerning marriage and marriage customs.

Probably not.

 

[Iymus]

Context is king. The claim that Women's seed is... is neither.

Woman's seed is of the Man. Woman's seed which is sperma is taken out of the Man. Therefore sperma is as bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. it takes male and female Adam to make a child of Adam.

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Matthew and John place the date of crucifixion on different days. Matthew has it after Passover, John has it on Passover. John doesn't have a Passover meal, while Matthew does. That doesn't mean either one is wrong. It means they are working towards different theological arguments.

or what they are being moved by the Holy Spirit to emphasize.

Law and prophets are two different things. The Law is the Torah. It isn't the work of the prophets, which are separated.

Yes the Law is primarily of the Torah which also contains prophecy. However the Most High also gave law and prophecy thru other prophets, though much of which seemingly re emphasized what was already said in the Torah.

 

[Iymus]

You're taking things out of context here.

May you put each or a few of the following verses in proper context please.

Luk 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[Deeje]

1. law of creation concerning child of man or man child.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

I have to agree with @amatuerscholar that you seem to be taking verses out of context and from a confusing translation still enslaved to that archaic English....can I ask why? If you use BibleGateway or a similar site that allows you to compare verses in many translations, you can get a better sense of the meaning. Old English is not the language of the scriptures, nor is it used in modern speech.

Jesus had to be born into the Jewish nation because it was part of his credentials as Messiah, as was his being of the tribe of Judah.
Being born a Jew automatically placed you "under law".

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The "woman" in this instance is not Mary but God's figurative "wife"...his organization of spirit sons in heaven. This is where Jesus came from. His position as second in command, at his Father's right hand, gave Jesus the necessary qualifications to commission him (as God's most trusted son,) to rescue the human race by offering his life in exchange for Adam's. Since God's law demanded "life for life", an equivalent life had to be offered to cancel the debt that Adam left for his children, who were sold into slavery to sin and death through no fault on their part. So, a perfect (sinless) life had to be offered to balance the scales of justice. This is why he had to have his origins from outside the now sinful human race. Jesus was a willing volunteer who carried out his commission flawlessly. He was 100% human and died a horrible death for every one of us who value his sacrifice.

Matthew 20:28...
"Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many."

Jesus paid a "ransom" which is the price demanded for the release of captives. In our case he paid for all of us who accept the release and walk free. You notice it says this ransom applies to "many" but not "all"....only those who value Chris's sacrifice and live according to God's requirements will have it applied to them.

2. law according to the flesh and seed of Abraham.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Yes, through both his mother and his adoptive father Jesus was a "son of David" born Jewish "according to the flesh".
According to Wiki....."Israel's Law of Return stipulates that a Jew is someone with a Jewish mother..."

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Or in plain English and in context...."....through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. 16 For it is not really angels he is assisting, but he is assisting Abraham’s offspring. 17 Consequently, he had to become like his “brothers” in all respects, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, in order to offer a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test." (Hebrews 2:14-18)

What an amazing dispensation on God's part to have a High Priest and all his under-priests serving in his Kingdom who have all lived life in the flesh. This will qualify them as compassionate and understanding rulers in bringing the redeemed human race back into reconciliation with God by means of his Kingdom. This will take us back to God's original purpose...to live in peace and security in a global paradise as caretakers of this planet and all its inhabitants.

3. or perhaps Joseph did not honor her father and mother when it comes to marriage customs and tokens of virginity; therefore being a just man, planned to divorce her secretly instead of making her a publick example according to the law or customs.

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

There was a reason why God chose this couple to raise his son. Mary was a devout and humble woman and Joseph was a just and righteous man, and they both proved that they were worthy parents to raise the boy Jesus to manhood, as it says in Deuteronomy 6:4-9.

4. Perhaps you mean married as in wedding ceremony; however being legally pledge and consummation of the flesh seems to be marriage; even if without wedding ceremony.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Again, I am cringing at the translation you are using....

Matthew 1:20..."But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (NASB)

Luke 2:5..."in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child."

In Bible times, an "engagement" (betrothal) preceded marriage, but it was viewed more as waiting for the groom to prepare a place for his bride in order to bring her to her new home. Once the marriage was consummated, then only did the couple become "one flesh" with the prospect of starting a family. Joseph respected his wife's holy condition and refrained from relations with her until after Jesus was born.

Please understand that there is no "Holy Ghost" in the Bible.

6. Conceived of Holy Ghost and also the seed of the House and Lineage of David out of Bethlehem

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Luk 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Yes, Jesus had the credentials to be hailed as "the son of David". (Matthew 21:8-11)

7. First 16 verses of Matthew Chapter 1 describes the book of the generation of Christ which is of Joseph

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

This might be of interest.....the two genealogies....

"Why do the genealogies of Jesus Christ as given by Matthew and by Luke differ?

The difference in nearly all the names in Luke’s genealogy of Jesus as compared with Matthew’s is quickly resolved in the fact that Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan, instead of Solomon as did Matthew. (Lu 3:31; Mt 1:6, 7) Luke evidently follows the ancestry of Mary, thus showing Jesus’ natural descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus’ legal right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesus’ father. Both Matthew and Luke signify that Joseph was not Jesus’ actual father but only his adoptive father, giving him legal right. Matthew departs from the style used throughout his genealogy when he comes to Jesus, saying: “Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” (Mt 1:16) Notice that he does not say ‘Joseph became father to Jesus’ but that he was “the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.” Luke is even more pointed when, after showing earlier that Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary (Lu 1:32-35), he says: “Jesus . . . being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli.”—Lu 3:23."

Genealogy of Jesus Christ — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Terry Sampson]

But prophecy comes by and is quoted from the old testament .

• Prophecies quoted in the Christian Scriptures are either from the Tanakh or not.
• If the prophecies quoted in the Christian Scriptures are from the Tanakh, they were they were quoted from the Septuagint or they were not.
• If they were not quoted from the Septuagint, then they were translated from the Hebrew Tanakh.
• The Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew Tanakh, therefore, even if the prophecies quoted in the Christian Scriptures were carried over from the Septuagint, they had a Hebrew origin.
• The Hebrew Tanakh does not consist completely and only of prophecies.
• Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Mark, John, and Paul make no mention of Jesus' virgin birth nor the virgin birth of anyone.
• Paul was executed around the mid-60s C.E. Is it reasonable to assume that none of those believers who had actually known Jesus, just forgot to tell Paul: "Oh, by the way, Jesus was born of a Virgin who conceived him by the Ruach Kodesh? I think not.
• The death of Jesus' mother is not mentioned in Scripture, but she was alive when Jesus was crucified. If Jesus was born around 4 C.E. and Mary was a young teenager when Jesus was born, she might have been born around 10 B.C.E. and would seem to have been in her 40's when Jesus was crucified. Do any of the authors of any of the Christian Scriptures speak of her beyond the Pentecost? I think not.
• No mention in the Christian Scriptures is made of Joseph's death. However:
  • John 19:25-29
    25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
  • That suggests to me that Joseph was dead by the time Jesus was crucified.
• Biologically, humans have four kinds of DNA:
  • Males inherit (a) Y-DNA from their fathers, (b) X-DNA from their mothers, (c) Mitochondrial DNA from their mothers, and (d) Autosomal DNA from their mothers and their fathers.
  • Females inherit (a) X-DNA from their fathers, (b) X-DNA from their mothers, (c) Mitochondrial DNA from their mothers, and (d) Autosomal DNA from their mother and their fathers.
  • The conception and birth of all male humans requires Y-DNA.
• Given the fact that Jesus was born a Jew and the fact that Jewish sages in the early centuries of the Common Era affirmed and taught that Jews are born without the taint of moral turpitude, by virtue of their ancestors who "stood at Sinai", it should come as no surprise that early Christian doctrine would proclaim Jesus to be born without sin. It is common teaching today, that Jews are born without sin and with all of the appropriate and necessary DNA.

 

[Iymus]

Jesus had to be born into the Jewish nation because it was part of his credentials as Messiah, as was his being of the tribe of Judah.
Being born a Jew automatically placed you "under law".

cannot be born a jew without seed of a jew.

The "woman" in this instance is not Mary but God's figurative "wife"...his organization of spirit sons in heaven.

so mary did not bring forth a man child to rule all nations?

Yes, through both his mother and his adoptive father Jesus was a "son of David" born Jewish "according to the flesh".

According to Wiki....."Israel's Law of Return stipulates that a Jew is someone with a Jewish mother..."

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Matthew 1:20..."But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (NASB)

and also

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David

"Why do the genealogies of Jesus Christ as given by Matthew and by Luke differ?

one is Joseph's genealogy

the other is

(as was supposed) Joseph's genealogy

 

[Iymus]

Prophecies quoted in the Christian Scriptures are either from the Tanakh or not.

which some refer to as the old testament along with the first five books

If the prophecies quoted in the Christian Scriptures are from the Tanakh, they were they were quoted from the Septuagint or they were not.

I know some bibles such as KJV use masoretic text for Old Testament. In regards to New Testament however I cannot affirm or deny your statement at this time.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Mark, John, and Paul make no mention of Jesus' virgin birth nor the virgin birth of anyone.

mentions concerning or in regards to his birth are here and there, but when it comes to specific terminology of an almah or young woman of marriageable age then no. almah births in general do not seem uncommon.

That suggests to me that Joseph was dead by the time Jesus was crucified.

some say Joseph died way before the ministry of Christ

it should come as no surprise that early Christian doctrine would proclaim Jesus to be born without sin.

No man is born with sin however looking at the mechanics of sin we are born with flesh that can be tempted based on being drawn away of our own lusts and enticed. we can also intentionally lust which seem to also fall under sin.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Even when the Son was tempted he did not allow lust to conceive to bring forth sin.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

I do not think any man is born of sin unless lust hath conceived and is fertilized , or intentional / deliberate lust which brings forth sin.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Even when the Son was tempted he did not allow lust to conceive to bring forth sin.

So, Jesus, being a Jew, and fully human:

• was born of two human beings,
• was born without sin,
• was a Son of God;
• was tempted to sin and successfully resisted sin throughout his life on earth,
  
• was crucified,
• died,
• was entombed (i.e. buried),
• was resurrected,
• and ascended into heaven.

 

[Iymus]

QUOTE="Iymus, post: 6546219, member: 68034"]Even when the Son was tempted he did not allow lust to conceive to bring forth sin.

So, Jesus, being a Jew, and fully human:

• was born of two human beings,
• was born without sin,
• was a Son of God;
• was tempted to sin and successfully resisted sin throughout his life on earth,
  
• was crucified,
• died,
• was entombed (i.e. buried),
• was resurrected,
• and ascended into heaven.

[/QUOTE]

Just about. So I have been told, So I have studied, and so I have grasped. Though some may nitpick about the wording or verbiage.

I try to provide references and make highlights so whether one agrees or disagrees they see where I get it from in the bible.

Rom 1:3 KJV Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 KJV And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Heb 2:16 KJV For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 KJV Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Gal 4:1 KJV Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:4 KJV But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Joh 7:42 KJV Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Luk 2:3 KJV And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
Luk 2:4 KJV And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
Luk 2:5 KJV To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Luk 2:40 KJV And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luk 2:41 KJV Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

Joh 1:45 KJV Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:41 KJV The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 KJV And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

 

[pearl]

If the first 17 verses in Matthew Chapter 1 is artificial genealogy then i am learning something new. If that is the case then that should even seemingly discredit the whole new testament.

Artificial in the sense of construction. Has to do with the purpose of the author who penned Matthew, which as you stated was to give Jesus lineage back to David. The difficulties may stem from where Mt got his information which more than likely was from the Septuagint and the names in Greek are confused with the Hebrew.
Matthew's genealogy differs from Luke as his goes back to Adam to God, his purpose, the Jesus is the Son of God. It is quite possible to have conflicting genealogies of the same person if those genealogies have different functions, purpose. I think we need to keep in mind that the purpose was not biological accuracy, but who Jesus is believed to be.

 

[Iymus]

Has to do with the purpose of the author who penned Matthew,

Seems to show or emphasize that he took on the seed of Abraham and that he is of the house and lineage of David.

Mat 1:1 KJV The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 1:6 KJV And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mat 1:16 KJV And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew's genealogy differs from Luke as his goes back to Adam to God, his purpose, the Jesus is the Son of God.

Only real difference seems that

one is Joseph's genealogy

the other is

(as was supposed) Joseph's genealogy

Both genealogies are of Christ and Adam and goes back to God being Originator.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Let's try this again.... Almah does not, mean virgin.

^ This.