Vote For Romney = Vote for Satan

[jonny]

Get out your blood pressure medication. This guy Bill Keller is a kook and he makes all Evangelicals look bad.

http://www.liveprayer.com/fox1.cfm

 

[doppelganger]

Will the bumper stickers read "Romney/Satan '08" or "Satan/Romney '08". I might be okay with the former, since we look like we're going to weather "Bush/Satan '04".

 

[jonny]

I've just got to add that I once wrote an email to Keller calling him out for some of the lies he tells about Mormonism. I received the most vile, unchristlike email I've ever received in my entire life from him. It was filled with profanities and so dirty that I cannot even post any of it here.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Keller is bad news alright. That he wasn't giggling the whole time was the most amazing part.

 

[kadzbiz]

Get out your blood pressure medication. This guy Bill Keller is a kook and he makes all Evangelicals look bad. http://www.liveprayer.com/fox1.cfm

What's the deal with the underwear thing? Can you explain?

 

[Mathematician]

Mormon cult.

Weren't Jesus's followers called similar names?

 

[nutshell]

What's the deal with the underwear thing? Can you explain?

I don't know...what's the deal with your underwear?

 

[jonny]

Scuba - You must know Keller. He does giggle through the entire thing.

Kadzbiz - Sure. When members of the Mormon church go through the temple they make covenants with God to follow his commandments and the teachings of Christ. As a reminder of these covenants we wear a "temple garment." They are white (unless you are in the military) underwear that look similar to a t-shirt and long boxers. Members believe that they provide spiritual protection and we are encouraged to wear them at all times. They have been described as an "outward reminder of an inward committment" by some.

http://www.onlymormon.com/Results/?cx=002912200619586055156%3Argcnsb6amuy&cof=FORID%3A10&safe=active&q=temple+garment#1197

 

[Scuba Pete]

Whoa... Holy Underwear! I have lots of those!

 

[robtex]

Get out your blood pressure medication. This guy Bill Keller is a kook and he makes all Evangelicals look bad.

http://www.liveprayer.com/fox1.cfm

Putting this silly video aside can I ask you a and the other RF's a rather blunt question abut Rommey. If Rommey is elected president of the United States can he be a president first and the Mormon second, or will he be a Mormon first and a president second?

Where do his loyalties first lie? To the sovereign government of the United States or to the Church of Latter Day Saints?

 

[kadzbiz]

I don't know...what's the deal with your underwear?

About $15 for a pack of 7.

.....They are white (unless you are in the military) underwear that look similar to a t-shirt and long boxers. Members believe that they provide spiritual protection and we are encouraged to wear them at all times. They have been described as an "outward reminder of an inward committment" by some...

And what if you ARE in the military, what then? Shouldn't it read "inward reminder of and outward committment" or am I understanding something wrong here?

....Where do his loyalties first lie? To the sovereign government of the United States or to the Church of Latter Day Saints?

Good question.

 

[jonny]

Putting this silly video aside can I ask you a and the other RF's a rather blunt question abut Rommey. If Rommey is elected president of the United States can he be a president first and the Mormon second, or will he be a Mormon first and a president second?

Where do his loyalties first lie? To the sovereign government of the United States or to the Church of Latter Day Saints?

This is kind of long, but well worth the read. The answer is complicated and can only really be understood if you understand the history of the LDS church and government.

http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=148

Some quotes from this article that address your topic:

Let me turn, then, to a third side of the influence of church history on Mitt Romney. One aspect of this abandonment of theocracy was a pullback from government in general. Mormons realized that theocracy only led to pain. As a church they became very sensitive about any kind of theocratic involvement in government.

This was reinforced in the famous seating hearings of Reed Smoot in 1904. Smoot was an apostle – a very high official in the Mormon Church – elected to the Senate on a Republican ticket, but refused a seat. To settle the question he went through hearings for four years. This protracted examination brought forth all of the opposition to Mormons that was still residual in the nation. It was charged that they were still practicing polygamy, that they were still theocratic, that their reforms were superficial and not to be trusted.

The president of the church, a man named Joseph F. Smith, nephew of Joseph Smith, was called to testify. He was asked over and over again, will Reed Smoot be obligated out of his loyalty to you as the prophet of the church to do what you say in political matters? Over and over, Joseph F. Smith answered, no, he is not obligated; he should follow his own conscience and the obligations he feels to his constituency, not to the president of the church.

The repetition of that question was an indication of the deep suspicion that prevailed and I think prevails to this day. To calm the fears, at the end of the hearings, the church authorities codified the testimony of the church president in an official statement: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds to the doctrine of the separation of church and state." At the time that was a departure, but an accurate statement of what they had come to believe. "They believe in the non-interference of church authority in political matters and the absolute freedom and independence of the individual in the performance of his political duties."

On these terms, Mormonism entered the political scene: We will not interfere in politics or in the action of any politicians who are members of the church. And that policy hasn't changed over the century.

There is, on the church website, this statement: "Elected officials who are Latter-day Saints make their own decisions and may not necessarily be in agreement with one another or even with a publicly stated church position. While the church may communicate its views to them, as it may to any other elected official, it recognizes that these officials still must make their own choices based on their best judgment and with consideration of the constituencies whom they are elected to represent."

On the whole it is fair to say that by comparison to the 19th century, the church has withdrawn from politics. It does get entangled in Utah politics; it's such a large part of the state's economy and population that engagement is inevitable. The church also occasionally takes stands on political measures that it considers to be moral issues, such as prohibition, but it doesn't direct politicians how to vote. There is nothing like the Catholic bishops' statements. There is no bishop who would threaten to excommunicate a Mormon because he took a position contrary to church positions on abortion or gay marriage or anything of that sort – nothing like the Pope's recent statements in Latin America.

So I believe that we should truly be able to lay aside fears that Romney will receive directions from Salt Lake City. There is nothing in the record of the past century that would lead one to think otherwise.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Putting this silly video aside can I ask you a and the other RF's a rather blunt question abut Rommey. If Rommey is elected president of the United States can he be a president first and the Mormon second, or will he be a Mormon first and a president second?

Where do his loyalties first lie? To the sovereign government of the United States or to the Church of Latter Day Saints?

That to me seems a silly question...
What have other Presidents done who were members of other faiths.
All presidents take the same oath of office.

It is not a question of either ....or
or a question of first .....and second.

No one has Questioned Presidents who were members of other denominations this question.

It is quite inappropriate to ask it of anyone.
The best answer is to look to their record to see who let their presidency be over burdened by their faith.

 

[jonny]

And what if you ARE in the military, what then? Shouldn't it read "inward reminder of and outward committment" or am I understanding something wrong here?

They are brown so that they can be worn in combat and under a military uniform.

 

[kadzbiz]

They are brown so that they can be worn in combat and under a military uniform.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant military people who were standing in the temple alongside others in white underwear. Hee hee. But in any case, if the underwear is underneath, what difference is it that they are brown? Although I could see the advantage when the situation is pretty tense .....

 

[Katzpur]

If Rommey is elected president of the United States can he be a president first and the Mormon second, or will he be a Mormon first and a president second?

Where do his loyalties first lie? To the sovereign government of the United States or to the Church of Latter Day Saints?

His loyalties as the President of the United States would be to the government and the people of the United States. His loyalties as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be to Jesus Christ. Would you even be asking this question if he were a Methodist or an Lutheran? Why do people even wonder about this? And where do they see the conflict? One role has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Scuba - You must know Keller. He does giggle through the entire thing.

I honestly did not pick up on that, but I will take your word for it.

Gene, the word used in the NT was "sect" (at least in the NIV)

Acts 24:14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man. -NIV

 

[jonny]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant military people who were standing in the temple alongside others in white underwear. Hee hee. But in any case, if the underwear is underneath, what difference is it that they are brown? Although I could see the advantage when the situation is pretty tense .....

I guess the military is kind of touchy about the uniforms all matching and what you wear under them. My mission president was in charge of the army chaplains in the pentagon and worked hard with the church to get them to make the military garments. It was important to him that members of the church serving in the military be able to wear garments under their uniform.

I also spoke with an astronaut who is a member of the church and he mentioned that it was really difficult to get permission to wear his temple garments into space. Eventually, NASA allowed him to do so and he was grateful. He believes, as some members of the church do, that they provided him some physical and spiritual protection. The shuttle he went up in, the Challenger, exploded on its next mission.

 

[jonny]

I honestly did not pick up on that, but I will take your word for it.

Gene, the word used in the NT was "sect" (at least in the NIV)

Acts 24:14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man. -NIV

'Sect' has become the equivelant of cult in many cultures today. In Germany, the words "kult" and "sekte" are used interchangably.

 

[Divine Androgyne]

Putting this silly video aside can I ask you a and the other RF's a rather blunt question abut Rommey. If Rommey is elected president of the United States can he be a president first and the Mormon second, or will he be a Mormon first and a president second?

Where do his loyalties first lie? To the sovereign government of the United States or to the Church of Latter Day Saints?

People asked the same question of Catholic J.F.K.. Why didn't they ask it when he (Rommey) ran for the Senate or previous public office? Why don't they ask it of everyone who runs for office?